jared grosvenor

eg: stopmotion, new-york, street
Turn the sound up and you can hear when it dies and my attempts to restart it. I had a crap battery (now replaced) and i think my carburetors were lean in the idle range. Still trying to figure that one out. This is a good example of 1. Don't try to extend your glide by sacrificing airspeed. I kept the bar in and had enough speed to flare over the fence instead of stalling on the fence. 2. Have enough altitude to make it to the runway. I should have turned IMMEDIATELY to the runway instead of trying to restart it on my base leg. I wouldn't of had to dodge cars and be forced to flare over the airport fence. 3. An engine out can and might happen to you! At the time, i only had 4 hours of trike time. Numerous hours in fixed wing and powered paragliding time. Hopefully people can learn from this. Cheers and happy flying!

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45 Comments

  • Jared Grosvenor
    by Jared Grosvenor 5 months ago
    video of an engine out landing I had.
  • Dave Hasbrouck
    by Dave Hasbrouck 5 months ago
    WOW, I was holding my breath. Nice job.
  • Jozinko Sajan
    by Jozinko Sajan 5 months ago
    Well done Jared. But it was very narrowly:)
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 5 months ago
    Wow! Really great to see someone exectute a soft field landing like that in a real emergency.

    Not to be critical, but it looked like you were trimmed very fast and never went to best glide and came down like a brick. It also looks like you were stretching your glide with a low energy short final approach, and clearly you had no choice about that and only because you knew how to flare very well you made it work. My point is if you could do it again you might have been able to keep the aircraft up higher and then come in faster in last 300 feet. The reason I bring this up, even though you made it to a safe landing spot and executed an near perfect touchdown, is I believe a littte bit more mid day conditions would have possibly made that approach not work. But I understand you had no choice but to stretch the final glide to flare a bit.

    In other words, simply put, the bar should've been where we see it in the video over the highway when the engine quit. And the bar should have been where it was when the engine quite on the last 300 feet in to land. The flare was perfect and made you touch down as slow as possible.

    But never mind my comments, GREAT JOB!!!!
  • Jared Grosvenor
    by Jared Grosvenor 5 months ago
    Thanks Larry. I do see what you're saying. Could have been a little higher over the road then pulled the bar in to get enough speed to flare over the fence. Still lots to learn as this was hour 4 in a trike. I appreciate the advise!
  • Joe Hockman
    by Joe Hockman 5 months ago
    Great job Jared for pulling that one off. One of the most important things to do first after an engine out is move to BG (best glide, best glide, best glide). Doing this will provide the greatest range of landing opportunities. As Larry rightly pointed out, there was a period as you were approaching the road where you probably had the bar in a little too much as you were sinking faster than necessary. Immediately following the engine quitting, the sight picture looked like it was possible to touch down on the runway.

    In any case, you did a great job. Also, you probably realize this experience is a confidence booster on whether you can deal with an engine out.
  • Jared Grosvenor
    by Jared Grosvenor 5 months ago
    Thanks Joe, it's interesting that I didn't get a vglide speed from northwing. Any suggestions? Vx is 42 and vy is 47. Its a mustang 3 15m.
  • Joe Hockman
    by Joe Hockman 5 months ago
    Yes, my suggestion is to determine it empirically. Vglide can vary a bit depending on chassis drag, wing loading (1 up vs 2 up), and other variables so I can understand why NW may not specify it.

    To do it empirically, you would ideally have a variometer that will give you good sink rate data. Get up with some altitude on a relatively calm day, go to idle and take a heading (say over a straight road) and simultaneously check a stop watch and altitude on a vario, then 15 sec later check your altitude all while keeping the control bar in a fixed position (start with neutral trim position). Turn 180 degrees if you want and do the same thing. Do this sequence twice (2 on initial heading and 2 at 180 deg). Remember all your sink rate numbers and calculate the average of the 4 data points. Now, repeat this whole process with bar pulled in 2" and then 4" etc (which should change your speed a bit; try to remember those speeds also). You might even do it with bar pushed out 2" and 4". Compare all the sink rate averages. What you are looking for is which bar position gives you the lowest average sink rate and what speed is that associated with. Often best glide is slightly faster than neutral trim position but of course this depends on how you have your wing trimmed.

    The above can be done with a simple dial gauge altimeter but usually these do not provide enough precision to get the kind of accurate data a vario can provide so if you don't have a vario maybe you can borrow one for the tests.

    If you have confidence in restarting your engine in flight you might do all the above after killing the engine to see if it is any different from data at idle. May be wise to always do this when you are within an easy glide to your home field just in case... One last point, you can simply multiple all your average 15 sec altitude loss averages by 4 to get you sink rate in fpm (feet per minute).
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 5 months ago
    Btw, when the engine quits and then won't crank over quickly it's a good indication of a seizure.
  • wexford air
    by wexford air 5 months ago
    Don't you mean slightly slower than neutral trim Joe?
    I find it's usually within 4-8 mph of the stall speed that I get minimum sink which gives me the most time in the air to make the plan of where I'm going to land, then it could change to a best glide speed that allows me to cover the most ground or even one that allows me to sink faster to get into a nearby field with s-turns and spirals. But the biggest factor is knowing your machine and how it handles in a glide and when there is a wind and no-wind. If you were able to carry out that landing successfully after only 4 trike hours then well done to you Jared, nice!
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 5 months ago
    With minimum sink versus best glide versus "back side of the power curve", I have always found just slowing any trike down gets it close to best glide. And unless there is a headwind you are trying to penetrate, slow seems to work within 90% of optimum. This pertains to trikes only though. Airplanes and gyroplanes can start sinking horribly fast as you get slower than minimum sink and glide like a brick at slower speeds. Knowing the numbers is critical on thes types of aircraft . On the flip side of that the airplane can actually flare to land from best glide and even minimum sink speed in many cases where as the trike cannot.

    So an over simplification would to be to say get slow and as Wexford says find your landing area, and then stay slow and set up a high, short final to come in with the bar back.

    Advanced trike pilots may prefer to set up a very high short final and then make S turns in the shape of a figure 8 always turning towards the field at the top and bottom of the "8" and then monitor the landing zone for obstructions for several passes on the way down. This technique also allows for the pilot to end the S turn and make a very short final from the perfect height into the field. Setting up too long a final or too high a final can cause the pilot to come in too fast for the short field if they couldn't get down or too slow if they wound up hitting sink or misjudged. The S turn put me in a no lose situation to execute my short final approach from the height I choose (stop the S turn at 275') and from the distance I choose (making S turns 400' behind tree/fence/power line) it's like a magic trick where the magician is never wrong.

    This is where spiral maneuvers can save your life (used at each end of the figure 8)
  • Jared Grosvenor
    by Jared Grosvenor 5 months ago
    Thank you everyone for the info! If I can't get a vario then I'll just use a few mph slower than trim. And Larry, an a &p reached out saying the same thing about probable engine seizure. He's been walking me through checking it to see for sure.
  • jeff trike
    by jeff trike 5 months ago
    You are lucky to be alive, and this could have been totally avoided.

    I can't believe how many engine outs I have seen or heard of that would have been totally avoided if the pilot had done one touch and go before leaving the pattern. I don't know at what point in your flight you had an engine out, but am guessing that it happened within a minute or two of takeoff. Do a touch and go first and give your problems the chance to arise while you are safely in the pattern.

    Being a new pilot with a new trike, you need some more time to become "one with your trike". Don't leave the pattern till you have 100 takeoffs and landings. You pulled off a save on this flight, but if it had been was thermally or windy, you would have never made it. I'll give you kudos for posting this video so we can all learn from this near disaster.

    You don't need a vario to figure out max glide. In calm winds, slowly pull in and find the point below the horizon where the surface features seem to diverging. When it is the highest, you are in max glide. Make a mental note of where diverging point appears against the nose tube. Shift the bungie there, and mark the cross tube with a sharpie so you can put it there before flight. In calm winds you will be able to glide to any point that appears below the bungie.

    A headwind/tail wind will shift the diverging point, but at least you will have a starting point from where to search for max glide.
  • Gary Crayne
    by Gary Crayne 5 months ago
    Jared, any reason all those clear fields under you were not an option? It looks like you had lot of clear areas to set her down. I know the driver of that car had to of taken a bite out of his/her seat cushion. Great example of "fly the aircraft" thanks for posting.
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 5 months ago
    Holy smokes Jared, you shoulda gone and bought a lottery ticket ! That was too close, kudos. Endure the 'shoulda' done criticisms, you had 'lady luck' with you, and incredible skill level, especially with low trike hours. Good that you didn't revert to 'fixed wing' re actions given the rapidly worsening situation. Sounds like a two stroke? Cold seizure ? Idle set too low? very well done , it just wasn't your time to 'go' ! (or that lucky car driver!).
  • Jared Grosvenor
    by Jared Grosvenor 5 months ago
    Thanks Monty. I know there are things I could have done different/better. I knew I was going to get all sorts of comments and criticism but i think it's a good thing because I'm getting advise (constructive and not)from much more experienced pilots. Also, pilots that haven't had an engine out yet might get something from watching it. Cheers
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 5 months ago
    Yeah Jared, two stroke pilots are two kinds, those that have had an engine out, and those that are going to have an engine out! Sometime!
  • Jared Grosvenor
    by Jared Grosvenor 5 months ago
    Yup!
  • Jared Grosvenor
    by Jared Grosvenor 5 months ago
    Jeff trike, thanks for the v glide advise. I was coming back from a2hr flight. I did one low approach to get a feel for the wind (I'd say a5kt right quartering headwind) then the engine out happened when coming in for what would have been numerous stop and go's.
  • Lucian Bartosik
    by Lucian Bartosik 5 months ago
    Jared, you did a great job of getting yourself on the ground safely, especially there during those last few seconds. However, as has already been stated, what about all those big fields that were below you?

    Too many times a pilot will fixate on a landing point out in front and ignore all others around them, desperately trying to make it to that point. All too often in an emergency, pilots forget about the safe fields below them and very, very often completely forget about the huge field that just went behind them.

    The moment the engine begins to sound a bit different a pilot should immediately begin looking to the sides and to the rear to see if there are any suitable or better points to land the aircraft, of course do this after a quick scan of the instruments to see if you can determine what might be going on, comparing CHT with EGT for example, in case a throttle setting may immediately help.

    It seems if the engine begins to falter, pilots often try adding throttle, which can sometimes increase the likelihood of a seizure. Your increasing EGT temp. will tell you several seconds before the CHT temp. that an impending engine failure is coming, so an immediate releasing of the throttle can sometimes give you a few minutes added life to a failing engine, before it finally does seize.

    So please all pilots bear in mind that as soon as you hear an engine change, look to the sides and behind you for the best place to put it down and don't try and stretch it to another nice place to land out ahead of you, because the wind or misjudgement may be working against you.

    A great job in an emergency situation for only four hours on your own in a trike. Now that this one is under your belt, all the future ones will feel less stressful, still stressful mind you, but less stressful. And of course ALWAYS fly in such a manner that you leave yourself an option for landing somewhere within reach of your glide, NEVER think that your 4 stroke engine is always going to keep running.

    I see so many videos on here of people flying stupidly, low over no possible landing spot or low over water, without care in the world, because it looks cool or seems fun to do. All those pilots reading here that have experience an engine out now ALL fly with a different mind set, compared to how they probably used to fly, regarding safety of where they could land if, or the next time, the engine goes silent.

    Remember that the turning prop in the air serves one purpose only, to keep the pilot cool, because when it stops in the air, you will be amazed at how quickly you begin to sweat...

    Safe flying everyone and a happy fourth to all the Americans. And from now until the end of July everyone gets a fourth (25%) off my TRIKE book price and free shipping to the lower 48 states.
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 5 months ago
    Silly question but if one notes the egt rising could pulling the choke on give a little longer by cooling the engine/egt ??
  • jeff trike
    by jeff trike 5 months ago
    Quick question Jared, what type of engine is on your trike.

    The way the engine slows down, it sound like fuel starvation of some sort.

    Glad you survived unscathed, but that landing was way to close for comfort.
    I though you were going to hit the rail next to the road, and when you got past that, I couldn't believe you still cleared the fence.

    When I fly I continually designate a bail out spot. And when I am over hostile terrain and don't have a bail out spot, I start counting up until a bail out spot is in reach again just so I am aware of the risks I take. If I the plus count gets too high, I do something about it.
  • Bryan Tuffnell
    by Bryan Tuffnell 5 months ago
    Hey Jared, while it's easy for those of us who weren't in the hot seat during the heat of the moment to suggest what would unquestionably be improvements from the comfort of our homes, at the end of the day you pulled off a successful deadstick landing with just four hours of airtime - an excellent result!!! We're all hopefully learning and improving in all aspects of our flying, and I just wanted to say 'good outcome' for going through for what is many pilots' biggest nemesis. Have virtual beer on me, and I hope your next four hours are less stressful... ;-)
  • Jared Grosvenor
    by Jared Grosvenor 5 months ago
    Thanks Bryan. I appreciate it man. And tomorrow that beer won't be virtual haha. Happy 4th everyone!
  • Jared Grosvenor
    by Jared Grosvenor 5 months ago
    Jeff, it's an mz202 2 stroke engine. It's looking like it was a too lean situation resulting in a seizure. I'll be verifying that in the next week or so. Going to run a compression test followed by a vacuum test followed by a cylinder scope. I'm waiting for tools to show up in the mail.
  • Andy Hughes
    by Andy Hughes 5 months ago
    Pull the spark plugs, any speckles of dark grey on the plug porcelain and you will need a top end rebuild due to melted pistons. Make sure you check/flush the bottom end for melted aluminum pieces. If found there is no purpose in doing a compression check.
  • Jared Grosvenor
    by Jared Grosvenor 5 months ago
    I noticed some pitting on one of the electrodes. Nothing on the porcelain. Thanks for the advise!
  • Robert Sumner
    by Robert Sumner 5 months ago
    Why not just pull the exhaust and look in the hole. If the rings are frozen or you see major scratches on the piston you'll know.
  • Bill Chance
    by Bill Chance 5 months ago
    I agree with Robert. You can see the piston crown and any scoring on the exhaust side of the piston. On the 202 you can pull the carbs and Reed valves and take a look at the lower end for any heat damage. You can do these checks with engine in place.
  • Bill Chance
    by Bill Chance 5 months ago
    Went back and viewed your video on my laptop instead of my phone. Better speakers. You tried a restart fairly quickly after it died and it sounds like the engine was cranking over pretty fast. If it seized it should have cranked over in the air sounding like it was when you tried cranking it when you turned off the runway. Did you notice the CHT or EGT readings when it died.

    You said the battery was crap. Remember the 202 is not like a Rotax. It won't run without power to the CDI units. Unless you wire something in like a regulator rectifier if you lose 12 volt power the engine dies.

    Thought you did a good job bringing her in but also remember the clutch that keeps a 202 from shaking and putting stress on the engine components at idle (that's why they build it with a clutch) is a great hindrance if the engine dies. The windmilling prop is like throwing out a drogue chute.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 5 months ago
    We all Just watched on the big screen at our 4th party. BEST VIDEO EVER!!! It really is on so many levels.

    thank you again for posting!
  • Jared Grosvenor
    by Jared Grosvenor 5 months ago
    Bill, the egt in cruise was right at 1200 and cht at 325ish. The battery was good enough to start the engine like 5 times then would die. I always kept it on a float charger to keep life in it.
  • Jared Grosvenor
    by Jared Grosvenor 5 months ago
    Larry, glad you guys enjoyed it so much. Hahaha. Have a beer for me!
  • Robert Sumner
    by Robert Sumner 5 months ago
    1200 degrees in cruise? Sounds too lean for sure. Move the clip on the needle down or get a richer needle. What is it at full throttle with the load of climbing?
  • Jared Grosvenor
    by Jared Grosvenor 5 months ago
    Thanks for the info. It drops to around 1075 or so at full throttle
  • Damien B
    by Damien B 5 months ago
    Congrats Jared ! You pulled it off, a true engine out! Ring up your Instructor and thank him for the training! Good stuff !
  • Robert Sumner
    by Robert Sumner 5 months ago
    That tells you that your main jet is probably okay, but in cruise you are mainly on the beginning of the needle circuit. Lower the clip to get a little more gas goin in to cool it off. Next time of course.. After you rebuild it..
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 5 months ago
    Jared, thanks for sharing the video. It was close but as they say "All is well if end is well". And under the circumstances you did great.

    Especially when this happened only after four hours of airtime.

    Safe landings!
  • roger larson
    by roger larson 5 months ago
    Some GPS have a glide ratio function. Practicing with this and determining best glide ratio speed for your trike and wing and knowing that speed is very important. Not sure if the Manufactures provide that speed in a P.O.H. like a normal GA aircraft does. I like the ABCDEF for emergencies. Airspeed, Best field, Checklist, Declare Emergency, Escape plan, Fire. The last two don't probably have as much importance in a trike as an airplane like a 172 cessna. Fire is turning off electrical system, escape plan is where are you going after the crash and propping doors open. I suppose ditching in the water would mean having your hand on or near the seatbelt release.
  • Tom Currier
    by Tom Currier 5 months ago
    I did some engine out practice last night and my glide is taking me much further than expected.

    How much is the glide affected by engine at idle vs. shut down? Although I've done a number of idle glides to see how far I can effectively go from varying altitudes, I've never shut the engine down but rather just brought it to idle. I'm wondering if a shut down will reduce a glide significantly.

    I'm at about 90 hours now and still can't bring myself to turn off a perfectly good running engine :)
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 5 months ago
    I'm with you Tom. I've heard many comments pro turning the engine off and I have been told that engine off gives a better glide as there is less drag. Seems counterintuitive to me, but, I've never tried. I remember seeing our club president with a student aboard cutting the engine in circuit, why ? I don't know but the engine failed to restart and he safely landed after first cutting the downwind and base leg very short. But why take the risk ??
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 5 months ago
    I have seen it both ways. For sure if your 912 is idling at 2000 rpm it is actually still producing thrust at 60 MPH. But on something like a REVOLT with a 6 blade prop idling at 1300 the prop is dragging. So it can work both ways.

    Practicing engine off with the landing included is great practice and great fun. Being used to the silence and experience of gliding your trike in will help remove the intensity in an emergency situation. However if you EVER add power during landings make sure you do it with an instructor. You are litterally betting your safety and your aircraft that you can safely land when practicing dead sticks. 2nd half of video shows an example. https://youtu.be/bCs6WxdUt2s
  • Tom Currier
    by Tom Currier 5 months ago
    Larry; thanks to your training all my landings are completely no power. I've had some sketchy approaches where earlier I would have powered out but with your technique I've followed through and always nail the landing. That said, I'm always ready to apply power when needed for a go around and having that in my back pocket is something I'm having a hard time overcoming. My plan when I move forward with engine off is to have at least 3 perfect approaches and landings and to follow the exact sequence with engine out.

    Not today though :)
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 4 months ago
    Monty, here is the video you said you "musta missed" love this video for many reasons!
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 4 months ago
    Yeah Larry CRS now I remember it was a mz202.and a lucky SUV!
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