Extreme Triking - Vintage Footage (**Please Read All Warnings in Comments Below!**)

eg: stopmotion, new-york, street
Pilot does some aerobatics in an ultralight trike before the FAA cracked down on this type of activity. From the ultralight footage vault.

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72 Comments

  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    from the ultralight footage vault
  • Uwe Goehl
    by Uwe Goehl 7 years ago
    Excellent educational video. Still trying to figure out the unique aerodynamics of trikes.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    There was somebody claiming on YouTube that the trike was overstresed during this maneuver. Lets nip this ignorance in the bud. Here are the facts and a quick lesson in trike loading.

    For round numbers, this trike weight is 400 lbs, pilot 150 totaling 550 pounds total load.
    Coming out you pull 3 g’s or 3*550= 1650 pounds, if sloppy say 4 G’s or 2200 pounds.

    MGW is 926 pounds. 3 G's Divide 1650 by 926 = 1.8 G’s. That’s less than a trike at MGW doing a 60 degree banked turn. Hum. Looks OK to me.
    At 4 G’s that’s 2.4 G’s, that also looks OK to me.

    That is clearly not an over stressed trike.
  • Ted  Bailey
    by Ted Bailey 7 years ago
    Hi Paul, Nice Wangs, but no loop in this video. Personally if you have to wind it up with a wang to get enough energy for a loop it is not a good wing for looping.
    I pull more G's just flying in thermals than I do in performing aerobatics. What FAA crackdown do you speak of? Has anyone ever been fined for aero in a trike?
    Ted
  • brandon pihl
    by brandon pihl 7 years ago
    Removing the BRS, then doing loops? Thats hilarious.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Joe,
    Yes it is amazing what you can learn for what you see on the screen. I have learned how to rob banks plus beat up 6 big guys walking onto a bar to get the supermodel. Thank someone for TV/YouTube stunts and the modern media in general.

    In all seriousness, maybe someone will learn something about trike loading. It is interesting this is so easily misunderstood by qualified pilots. A qualified pilot was quick to judge that I had overstressed the trike. Maybe others will learn there are federal regulations against stunts and it is stupid exceeding manufactures limitations.

    Joe, I will make a suggestion. First, I understand your indirect and thoughtful humorous tactic at criticizing this stunt. Since I have found a nitch for trike training and filled it, I understand everyone thinks my cubbyhole is training. OK so be it. However I am going to be getting a number of things out in the near future that do not fit this profile.

    You must realize that someone reading your “I’m going to go for it” post might think you are serious (you had me going for a minute). You would be surprised how gullible people are.

    Finally to the suggestion: Please do not label this as training and “feed” what you are opposing. You would be better off to say “this is irresponsible” or “what a bad example this is” or “anyone who attempts this is stupid”.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Ted,
    The FAA crackdown was back in 2004 when they turned ultralight trainers into FAA N numbered aircraft. Pre 2004, with ultralights it was not illegal, with an N numbered aircrft, now it is.
  • Ted  Bailey
    by Ted Bailey 7 years ago
    Hi Paul,
    My point is that no pilot has ever been cited or fined for aero in trikes. None will
    be unless turned in by complaints from other trike pilots. It is a big sky with hardly anyone watching. Solo flights should be same as 103 flights who's business
    is it what one decides to do to themselves. Another reason I went back to 103.
    From the video it looks like a 130 degree wang(nice one)but a ways off from a true loop. For some the rush/reward is worth it, too bad there are no classes for areo in trikes like in hanggliders. It would change a lot of perceptions and attitudes.
    Ted
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Joe,
    To say this is a training video when a focus of the video is "illegal" and will "break and kill you" --- please. I show a tumble in the FAA WSC handbook, TWICE, should this be taken down?

    Your post is the only one I saw that promotes this as a training video. Maybe you should take that post down if you are really worried about it.

    Maybe we should take down all the videos, discussion and/or articles about flying over water, flying in turbulence, testing a homebuilt trike, trike flying in general. Aviation is dangerous and risky. Any time anyone gets in a WSC aircraft, or a car for that matter, they are taking higher risk.

    On a day to day basis I have people tell me I am stupid and crazy for flying in one of these flimsy trike things. Has anyone ever said that to you? What do you say?

    I am amazed you liked the last video of flying in Kauai when I show a trike flying over water and I specifically say treacherous twice. I even had a passenger. Should I take that one down too? Why is flying over water OK but not a wang in an ultralight?

    In my "Hang Gliding Extreme" video I have a segment of a world record where John Heiney did 52 loops in a row. A flew wing without a motor. It was also on TV. People like to see this stuff. It opens up the perspective of the sport. Should I take that down also?

    I see prominent people do 90 degree banks in trikes “shown on this web site”. 90 degree must be OK but what about 95 degree, 100, 105, 110 degree. Where should we draw the line? Should only 60 degree banks be allowed here? Who should be the “high bank angle police” and what should the limits be?

    The documentary of the trike flying Mt Everest was a risky stunt and I thought was stupid and something I would not do. This could be considered a training video of something dangerous in a trike also. Should this be taken down?

    It is funny where people draw the line.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Ted,
    Good observation, you are correct, this is no loop. 130 degrees is a good estimate. It is just a wang. Never tried to say it was a actual loop.

    If the trikers think the Hang Glider pilots are crazy for doing aerobatics, they better not look at Paraglider pilots who do incredible aerobatics in inflatable wings. One of the scariest maneuvers I ever did was deflating and inflatable paraglider wing in a stall.

    The Red Bull Paraglider aerobatics provided a huge boost in paragliding. I think in the future we will see more spectator sports for trikes as the industry matures.
  • Ted  Bailey
    by Ted Bailey 7 years ago
    I do not see anything wrong with posting this type of video with the disclaimers.

    Trike aerobatics could be good for the sport if it ever matures past the just say no
    crowd. Like all things in life and flying there is a right way and a wrong way. To stop
    the discussion altogether eliminates the chance a pilot might have to learn the right way. I would think we could all agree that in flying ignorance tends to lead to death as knowledge/training tends to lead to life. Ted
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Yes Joe I do think your first comment helps promote this as training and needs to be modified. Again, I had to do some research on you before I made any comment back to you to see if you were serious. It is amazing what people are led to believe and do believe as a result of what they see and hear. It is easiest to be clear so there is no misunderstanding.

    You were leading people to believe this was a training video and you were going to go for it. Do you realize this???

    This is exactly what you said!!!! Think about this from a New Bee point of view. Put yourself into their shoes.
    Joe said:
    “Hey Paul,
    Thanks for showing me how to do this wing over, man. All I needed was for you to show me how to do it properly with that stop action, step by step, you showed me in the video. So I need to concentrate on keeping my speed up and not push out? I know, I know, it's illegal but I'm sure it's lots of fun too, so what the hay! I promise you that before I try it that I will lighten the load on my trike as you suggest so I won't stress it too much. I'll start doing that with taking off my BRS and just go up with half a tank of gas. Wahoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Keep those training video's coming Paul...........:)”

    Think about what you said here. Believe me, I have heard thinks much less thought out and outrageous that are serious than this.

    If you want to look at someone to blame for what you oppose, look at yourself, not me.

    Newbees to the sport do not know enough and must be talked to clearly and directly so there is no misunderstanding. Others will not know or do research on what you said and will think you are serious and follow your lead. At least modify your post to say "I was just kidding" at the end to clarify PLEASE.

    There is nothing illegal about what is shown. I am sure if you zoomed in on the trike ID, you would see it is not an N number. Does this matter to you that it was an ultralight and legal? Again not clear. I do not understand what you are saying. I guess if you think it is legal it is OK and safe?

    If I was doing this as a training video, it would probably be at least 20 minutes and give more important and relative information. It would be more complete and prepare someone for such a maneuver. What is missing if I was making this as a training video? If you have seen any of my training stuff you will realize it is complete and as comprehensive as I can accomplish. A 2 minute video on aerobatics is pretty lame and inadequate for training.

    Glad you asked Joe.
    What is missing if I was making this as a training video?

    How to get started and work up to wangs.
    What is legal and why. What can you do and what can you not do.
    How to manage airspeed.
    How to manage G loads and airspeed to not get into trouble.
    Can you go over manufacturers red line and should you?
    What is the Vg diagram? Does it apply to trikes?
    How to stay out of trouble?
    How do you get into trouble?
    How do bumps effect aerobatics? When should you fly extreme maneuvers?

    If I was going to do this as training, I would do a much better job and this is a start at a syllabus/lesson plan as outlined above.

    I know I am a target. If you were really serious about how you feel I am sure you would target other videos such as:
    http://www.trikepilot.com/videos/view/extreme-trike-flight_3704.html
    Have you looked at this one? What do you think? Why do let this type of thing get by with no opposition?
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    OK. So what you are saying is that you are making such a big deal of this is because it is me that posted it. If anyone else had posted it or done it you would have ignored it. This is interesting.

    Thank you for finally understanding and admitting it is not a training video. This is huge progress.

    No one is asking YOU to do anything you do not want to or flying like videos on YouTube. I am sure you do not drive a car like Nascar, nor jump over cars with motorcycles, nor do flips on mountain bikes, nor jump off cliffs on skis, etc. But you should not be the judge and criticize others for such things that you would not do yourself.

    If you want to call it a stunt that is fine with me. I will change the wording on YouTube.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 7 years ago
    I think what Paul clearly labeled as "illegal", "can get you killed", "stunt" and dangerous in the video itself is fair warning to a new pilot. In the end we are not here to police adults. He was alone in the trike as well. If he had just posted the video without those remarks or with a passenger, I'd have a huge problem.
  • John Olson
    by John Olson 7 years ago
    "It is the DUTY of all FREE MEN, to break EVERY stupid rule."
    -Sam Adams
  • Jim T
    by Jim T 7 years ago
    It is always so much fun to see the guys that write the books bragging about breaking the rules they write about. Now I understand why your profile says you are 3 years old.

    I can only think of one possible reason for you to post this stupid video (Your words) on this site....Little paul hamilton wants to show the rest of us what a real trike pilot can do.

    If there is another reason hamilton please let us know.

    CFI/DPE....What a joke! I would be embarrassed to call you my instructor.

    And when Joe calls you on your "stupid stunt" (remember you called it stupid in your video) you want to belittle him for being the only voice of reason to speak against the "great and powerful wizard of trikes".

    The whole conversation not only proves you are a "stupid" (your words) pilot but it also proves you are a "dangerous" pilot.

    I submit your conversation with Joe as evidence.

    Can you spell ADM? That's Aeronautical Decision Making. I see you dedicated a couple of sentences to this subject in your book telling us we need to look elsewhere to learn about ADM. Now I know why.

    Let me refresh your memory if you have ever read them at all.

    Pilot’s Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge (FAA-H-8083-25) chapter 17.

    13. HAZARDOUS ATTITUDES. ADM addresses the following five
    hazardous attitudes.

    a. Antiauthority (don't tell me!). This attitude is found
    in people who do not like anyone telling them what to do. In a
    sense they are saying no one can tell me what to do. They may be
    resentful of having someone tell them what to do or may regard
    rules, regulations, and procedures as silly or unnecessary.
    However, it is always your prerogative to question authority if
    you feel it is in error.

    b. Impulsivity (do something quickly!) is the attitude of
    people who frequently feel the need to do something-anything-
    immediately. They do not stop to think about what they are about
    to do, they do not select the best alternative, and they do the
    first thing that comes to mind.

    c. Invulnerability (it won't happen to me). Many people
    feel that accidents happen to others, but never to them. They
    know accidents can happen, and they know that anyone can be
    affected. They never really feel or believe that they will be
    personally involved. Pilots who think this way are more likely
    to take chances and increase risk.

    d. Macho (I can do it). Pilots who are always trying to
    prove that they are better than anyone else are thinking I can do
    it - I'll show them. Pilots with this type of attitude will try
    to prove themselves by taking risks in order to impress others.
    While this pattern is thought to be a male characteristic, women
    are equally susceptible.

    e. Resignation (what's the use?). Pilots who think what's
    the use? do not see themselves as being able to make a great
    deal of difference in what happens to them. When things go well,
    the pilot is apt to think that's good luck. When things go
    badly, the pilot may feel that someone is out to get me, or
    attribute it to bad luck. The pilot will leave the action to
    others, for better or worse. Sometimes, such pilots will even go
    along with unreasonable requests just to be a "nice guy."

    I definitely see 3 of the hazardous attitudes in the above conversation.
    Antiauthority...(don't tell me I wrote the book)
    Invunerability...(it won't happen to me cause I am so much better than you)
    Macho...(I've got the right stuff to be a real pilot and a video to prove it)

    Dangerous attitudes make dangerous pilots!

    You might teach ADM to your students...but most students learn by example?

    I know some people look up to you as a leader in this sport but I never have and never will.

    To me you are just a little man with a big ego and I wouldn't have you as a wing man.

    You can fly with me any day Joe.

    Jim T
  • brandon pihl
    by brandon pihl 7 years ago
    I disagree. What i saw in that video was nothing more than an accomplished pilot performing a few agressive wingovers. Nothing which warrants personal attacks at the level of Jim T. In terms of being excessively dangerous, not in comparison to low proximity wingsuit pilots or speed wings being used in mtn descents, or even hook turns on tiny canopies at drop zones all over the world. All of those pursuits have an extremely low tolerance for mistakes and i never see attacks such as this being leveled against those guys on their forums. The reason why is performing risky maneuvers without injury is most often a function of pilot skill and in this video i see skill not stupidity.
  • Jim T
    by Jim T 7 years ago
    Hamilton is the one who said it was stupid not me and in the video he says he is is going upside down and that's a loop not a wing over.

    I said he was dangerous because he has dangerous attitudes in defense of showing off "skills". It wasn't me who wrote the ADM and this guy has a problem with attitudes big time. Just read what he wrote. If he would have just agreed it was a stupid stunt and said he did not do it any more you would not have heard a word out of me. He can do all the stupid aerobatics he wants. I don't care.

    paul hamilton is at the top of the list of acknowledgments in the FAA Weight Shift Control Handbook. Why wasn't he showing people how to do loops and wing overs in there... Because it's stupid...just like he said.

    This guy thought he had the skills to do wing overs and he's dead.

    NTSB Identification: CEN10LA339
    14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
    Accident occurred Wednesday, June 23, 2010 in Ft. Lupton, CO
    Aircraft: AIRBORNE WINDSPORT EDGE, registration: N55857
    Injuries: 1 Fatal.

    This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

    On June 23, 2010, about 1145 mountain daylight time, an Airborne Windsport Edge weight-shift aircraft, N55857, was destroyed when it impacted terrain during aerobatic maneuvers near Fort Lupton, Colorado. The pilot, the sole occupant, sustained fatal injuries. The aircraft was registered to and operated by the pilot. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed for the 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 local flight. The pilot departed a private airstrip at an unknown time.

    An eyewitness reported that he observed the weight-shift aircraft performing “loops and wingovers” for about five minutes. The eyewitness continued that during the last maneuver the pilot performed what looked like a wingover; however, the wing folded, approximately 1,000 feet above ground level, and the aircraft spiraled down and impacted terrain.

    A review of the FAA database failed to reveal a pilot certificate for the 86 year old pilot.

    I'll bet this guy thought he had the skills to do what he did to kill himself.

    NTSB Identification: ANC10FA022
    14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
    Accident occurred Saturday, March 13, 2010 in Chugiak, AK
    Probable Cause Approval Date: 10/21/2010
    Aircraft: ANTARES MA-32, registration: N7JQ
    Injuries: 1 Fatal.

    The solo private pilot was on a personal local flight in a ski-equipped experimental light sport weight-shift-control, pusher aircraft (Trike) under Title 14, CFR Part 91. He died as a result of the accident, and was found about 10 feet from the aircraft. The accident aircraft was found near a railroad track by the crew of a passing train. According to his logbook entries, the pilot had 233 hours of powered flight experience, and logged 4.5 hours of flight in the past 15 months. According to a friend, the accident flight was his first flight of this year. No evidence of a current required aircraft annual condition inspection was discovered. The pilot had replaced the aircraft’s original engine with a more powerful 100 horsepower engine, and it was also equipped with a digital video camera mounted on the forward support strut facing forward. A review of the accident flight video showed the control tube upper support cables moving in and out of the left and right sides of the camera’s field of view. The nose of the aircraft and the single front ski could also be seen in the video. Before the accident, the aircraft was flying at a low altitude over snow-covered flats to the west of the accident site. It made a steep climbing right turn to the east and continued to climb at a very steep angle. The angle of bank approached 90 degrees relative to the horizon, the climb appeared to stop, and the nose fell through the horizon rapidly. A frame-by-frame review showed that prior to the nose falling through the horizon, the wind screen was pushed forward into the cameras field of view, and then to the left, indicating that the aircraft was descending backward. The camera recorded an event consistent with a aerodynamic tumble. During the tumble, the camera mount broke and the camera drifted away and fell alongside the tumbling aircraft, continuing to record the aircraft. The aircraft had been equipped with automotive style lap belts and shoulder harnesses, with plastic push-button receiver type buckles. The pilot's lap belt buckle came apart during the tumble, likely due to the airframe flexing between the shoulder harness mast attachment and the floor mounted lap belt attachment, which placed a tension load on the pilot's lap belt buckle. The camera attained a position below the aircraft, and showed the pilot separate from the aircraft above the treetops. The accident aircraft was originally constructed as a two-place ultralight trainer, and later transitioned to experimental light sport category aircraft. Transitioned aircraft were not subject to the construction standards of ELSA, and therefore there was no standard for occupant restraint systems.

    The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
    The pilot's decision to pitch the aircraft excessively during a steep climbing maneuver, resulting in a loss of control and an aerodynamic tumble.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Jim T,
    Sorry you do not approve of my videos. I totally respect your as well as other opinions who do not approve. Although you are accusing me of doing something wrong or illegal here, I hope you and all understand nothing is illegal in this video. As Brandon said above, just an aggressive wingover in an ultralight trike. I think your angry personal attack is unnecessary to provide your opinion of disapproval of this video.

    I have already responded above to those who dislike so I am not going to repeat myself again.

    However, since you asked, another reason I posted this video is to provide answers to questions people ask such as:
    How much do they weight? How fast do they go? How far can they fly? How much do they cost? Do you need a license to fly one? Can trikes do aerobatics?
    This video is just an answer to this last question with the warnings about such a maneuver. It is also a goal of mine to provide diverse information about triking for all.

    Try to look at it from a larger perspective.

    I think Brandon said it best in his comments above. Perhaps this will be helpful to understand a different viewpoint.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Jim,
    I said it was stupid to either humor the critics, provide a perspective for all, and/or because this is how I feel now 8 years later after I filmed it. Take your pick :)
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Buy the way this is not a loop, it is a wingover.
  • brandon pihl
    by brandon pihl 7 years ago
    Jim. You're using accident data from an incident which involved a highly modified aircraft lacking inspection documentation being flown by an eighty six year old pilot with less than 5 hours accrued over a 15 month time period to support your argument? He backslid his trike, it broke, and he died. Thats stupid. What's suprising is this pilot was doing loops for 5 full minutes, without dying, prior to his mistake. That's pretty god damn impressive! Point is, i never saw Paul overstress his trike doing those wingovers, and I saw a very careful management of energy. You're comparing that to some chucklehead doing loops in a trike sporting ski's and larger/heavier than intended motor. I much prefer the attitude of Paul's trike during those wingovers, than your attitude towards him. Ease up Jim. You say you don't care what he does, but your silly tantrum says otherwise. Btw, if i'm fortunate enough to reach the age of eighty six, still possessing the strength necessary to push out hard enough to do a loop, i'm doing loops!
  • Jim T
    by Jim T 7 years ago
    I never said you did anything illegal. I don't care if you or anyone else does stupid or illegal activity in a trike.

    I said you are a dangerous pilot because of your dangerous attitudes which are so oblivious in this thread. And you are teaching those attitudes to others.

    Now you've got Brandon bragging he's doing loops in your defense. Probably gonna go out tonight and make a video just to prove it.

    Every pilot is taught Aeronautical Decision Making and the hazardous attitudes that must be overcome for the safety of ourselves and others. You seem to want to make an art form our of doing just the opposite.

    So the reason you posted this video is because some "people" asked you if trikes can do loops.

    Showing people what they should not do is the essence of hypocrisy. That't what gets my goat.

    TRIKES ARE NOT MADE TO DO AEROBATICS. PERIOD.

    There is a big difference between doing loops in a hanglider and loops in a trike. Its to do with increased inertia, mass distribution, speed, drag and wing loading. A weight shift trike loses control authority if the wing becomes partially or wholly unloaded. There is a reason its called a weight shift. It relies on weight (which always acts vertically downward) and a pilot shifting the trike weight in opposition to lift to effect flight control. In any configuration where a component of trike weight is not acting directly opposite a component of wing lifting force, the pilot is not actually in control of the aircraft and cannot apply any corrective input to the aircraft.

    In quick looping maneuvers the pilot is relying on inducing sufficient sustainable centrifugal force acting against lift force to generate control, and in the case of a vertical dive or ascent, it is the luff lines and the curvature of the trailing edge of the wing that generates the force that brings the aircraft under control. This is very different to a fixed wing, which in any configuration where there is airflow over the control surfaces, aerodynamic control can be maintained in any orientation.

    In other words if you do aerobatics in a trike where the weight no longer acts in opposition to the lift forces, you are totally dependent on entry orientation, inertia and entry speed for a successful conclusion to the maneuver. If something happens midway through (insufficient speed, gust action etc etc) there is no way the pilot can effect any control input to correct the situation. The trike will most likely exit the maneuver in an unstable and uncontrolled fashion. There is no way you can do a slow loop in a trike. The moment the aircraft loses the balancing centrifugal force it will tumble and break apart.

    Let's just hope we don't see your pal Brandon in one of those NTSB reports.

    Jim T
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Jim T said:
    "Showing people what they should not do is the essence of hypocrisy. That's what gets my goat."Thanks for letting everyone know what "gets your goat". So I guess you feel the same way about people at airshows doing aerobatics in non aerobatic aircraft? (or am I just special, trikes special?)

    And you are simply wrong about some of the aerodynamic differences you speak about above between hang glider wings and trike wings. They both need to be positively loaded to control. Where did you learn this wrong information? I am starting to lose my respect for your opinions and knowledge.
  • brandon pihl
    by brandon pihl 7 years ago
    Jim, what is this, aerodynamics for children? What you neglected to recognize is whenever an airfoil encounters a moment of dynamic, and radiative total stagnation pressure, as occurs during weight shift trike looping events, Bernoulli’s principle alone cannot explain the influence of momentum gradients and or velocity potentials of a lifting surface's primary chord design parameters. Neither does it adequately explain flow kinematics, nor batten deflection induced transformative variances. Only by applying a lift value optained using a derivative of the Kutta–Joukowski theorem, can we truly understand the potential detriments of looping our trikes.
  • John Olson
    by John Olson 7 years ago
    I think that, when the day comes, when I have reached the end of my productivity, or if I become a burden upon my fellow man... I'm just gonna take my trike out and loop the crap out of it. One way or another, I'll let you guys know!
  • Jim T
    by Jim T 7 years ago
    It just wouldn't be right to see is your name on the NTSB web site.

    LONG LIVE OLE!
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Joe,
    If you are really serious about learning how to do loops in trikes call me. I will be happy to point you in the right direction.
  • brandon pihl
    by brandon pihl 7 years ago
    Jim, Please show me a quote from my comment where i was "bragging about doing loops."
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Joe,
    Sorry you are so angry and cynical about this basic wing over video. Hope all works out for you. If you need any further help, it would be best for you to call me at 775 772 8232. We could cover more ground on the phone.
  • brandon pihl
    by brandon pihl 7 years ago
    Hey Joe, per your link, those guys are crazy. Paul’s video is nothing like that. He’s generating energy with several increasingly steep wingovers. It was smooth and in my opinion well inside the g load limits of his trike. Look at my comments, i never said loops were safe.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Joe,
    To answer your questions just read above (with almost record posts for a video here). No sense saying it again.
    You are starting to go in circles. Anything new?
  • dave kempler
    by dave kempler 7 years ago
    Question: Didn't Larry do a video of him doing a wing over in a Revo a few months ago? Even called it something like "upside down in a trike." Seems like everyone back then said, "Oh, Cool! I need a Revo!"
    Paul posts a bit of history that has been archived for our entertainment and some of you go bezerk. How come 2 pioneers and leaders who have made so much possible for all of us get such different reactions?
  • dave kempler
    by dave kempler 7 years ago
    I think that every one of us here on this list is safety conscious. Some moreso than others. Needless to say, nobody wants to get carried off in a body bag or see any other pilot get hurt either. We can all agree on that. I thank you for advocating safety for all of us. However, if an individual pilot cannot determine his own limitations and the limitations of his aircraft, they need to take that aerodynamics for children course that was being offered a little while ago. They have no business doing wingovers or even being in the air. I have plenty of time with Paul in the back seat and he has taught me nothing but extreme conservatism. No risks. That's what he teaches. Read his books. No wingovers. This video was an archive from the past. I thought it was wonderful. I have no desire to fly like that. I have no ability to fly like that. I know my limitations and I will not try. I certainly will not loose my respect for Mr. Hamilton just because he can perform maneuvers that he has the skills to accomplish. I will simply make my own choice as to safely fly within my own limitations. You can make your own choice as well. I can't see how what Paul did years ago affects any of us in any way today. All the video did for me was prove that it could be done. That's a valuable piece of history. End of story.
  • Eric Elbourne
    by Eric Elbourne 7 years ago
    Thanks people, I am one of newbies and i watched it as entertainment and have no particular desire to do anything like it. I have been following all the discussion with interest. I am hoping that it is now over and put in the past as it was starting to become boring turning up to the site to see nothing but counter arguments. I love the safety angle that my CFI teaches and advocates around our area and trainers like Paul and Larry. Thanks for the input both sides, but i think all should shake hands and that's the final part of this particular story, just from a newbies point of view. Please.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Having over 30 DVD's on ultralights/LSA, 55 videos on YouTube, 5 books, 3 LSA training systems, 10 web sites, plus recently a CFI and an FAA DPE, I am criticized for numerous aspects of my publications and what I do ranging from "I do not like the music in the videos", "you need to do different narration", "you should not show girls in swim suits", "you should not show this", "you should do this" etc. ---- On and on. For flying it is pretty funny, it ranges from "You are a FAA rules, regulations and safety Nazi" to “You are an irresponsible un safe pilot”. That is quite the range of criticism. I am used to this because it is part of publishing and what I do.

    However, when this criticism turns into angry/emotional personal attacks and name calling, this is just bad for everybody. I have not and will not resort to this and I continue to respect opinions as long as they stay as constructive not deteriorate to childish name calling.

    For those new bees following this, I am a very safety mined instructor with hundreds of students who I demonstrate safety practices to. Read what my actual students who fly with me think of my flight instruction and safety practices:
    http://hangglidingtahoe.com/testimonials/
  • Jan Ferreira
    by Jan Ferreira 7 years ago
    Hi Paul,
    You know what they say “The tallest trees catch the most wind" I know you are not tall but your presence is tall in the Trike world, so don't worry about all the criticism, keep the good work going. There are many guys like me who learn a lot from your experience and know what you represent. I just hope this back and forth will end on TP so we can get back to the fun stuff. The argument became boring and serves no purpose anymore. Sorry to have taken up this space and hopefully not perpetuate the argument but I hope this is the end of it. Come on guys let's have some fun here.
  • Christopher  BIG RED  Van Zyl
    God lets the sun shine on all of us!
    Amen!
  • Ryan  McAnarney
    by Ryan McAnarney 7 years ago
    I agree that people that represent the FAA in certain positions should definetely not push material that is defiant of rules and regs, but in this case Paul was flying an experimental aircraft during an era where these things werent a big deal. We are now in different times where manufacturers definetely stipulate loading min and max's along with other parameters that we are to stay in, in order to "optimize" our safety envelope! I am of pure understanding that Paul is a very competent pilot and has flown places including where i fly on a daily basis that would make 95% of the trike pilots I know soil themselves. This being said there is a certain amount of experience differential going on here between Paul and probably the majority of other trikepilots here on this social network. I don't believe that he deserves the personal attacks that are given to him here, but there is a valid point that i have percieved here as well. Maybe that point is that when you do hold certain rank in aviation such as the ones held by Paul in the sense of his Instuctor, and examinership you definetely are opening yourself up to this sharp kind of criticizm that is going on here. When you have the capability to judge individual competence in the realm we are dealing with, the rules and regs such as the PTS and stipulated parameters by the manufacturer in the certain type you are flying are king. Coupled with the personal judgement that the individual such as Paul is able to make when testing an individual. The fact that Paul is a DPE and has posted this video is the reason he is getting the criticizm. Its a chance for others to criticize him. Its like opening yourself up to a feeding frenzy!There are plenty of other wingovers on this site in the video section of this site and u don't see those guys getting it like Paul is!
  • Eric Elbourne
    by Eric Elbourne 7 years ago
    From the newbie point of view, the name calling and smart remarks that some people levelled at Paul in this instance is what i did not appreciate on this site, everyone has an opinion, but come on guys i thought we were grown ups, as said by Jan a few hours ago, enough i think is enough. Cheers guys....
  • Andy Abrams
    by Andy Abrams 7 years ago
    The award for The Longest Thread (in both number and length of replies) on TrikePilot is...Paul Hamilton.

    **We regret that no actual comparisons or fact checking was done against other threads on TP.

    Brandon...you get the most scientific reply award within this post...for the "derivative of the Kutta–Joukowski theorem"....BRILLIANT!

    Brandon...you also get best mustache award.

    Joe...you get the Continuation and Embedded Sarcasm Awards.

    Jim...you get the Angry Post Award.

    Ole...you get the Coffe-Shop-BFI Award (inside joke from another long thread...long ago)

    Anyone not already receiving an award...Participation Awards for everyone.

    Fly Safe...Good Night Now!
  • Ted  Bailey
    by Ted Bailey 7 years ago
    Interesting comments, too bad most of it was so negitave. I guess the trike
    community is still not ready to start an honest forum on past vertical aerobatic manuevers in trikes.
    Just when I thought some of us might come out of the closet and declare ourselves Master Wangers! (o: Ted
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Yes Ted it is a slow evolution. Participating in this as well as other forums, in general (not saying anything about this particular video responses… in general- in general), any idiot with no experience or expertise on any subject can say anything and slam anything or anybody with no basis. This has and will continue to be a problem.

    As a specific example on this video, within minutes after I posted it someone said about the trike (who referenced it for sale on Barnstormers) said "It's unsafe as it's been stressed badly". What???? What planet, Jupiter maybe???? This statement blurted out from an alleged 500 hour pilot is simply WRONG with simple math. Any certificated pilot who got through their checkride “Areas of Operation PRINCIPLES OF FLIGHT. Any pilot should be able to figure this out or before making such a stupid statement and instructors should be able to teach this. No thought or asking before typing it out and pressing the enter key for the world to see.

    This sporadic anger, inexperience and ignorance is typical in these forums and it is a disservice to new bees and those looking at our sport from the outside who do not know the depth or experience of the bloggers. Typically it is only a few bad apples that spoil the bunch. How could we fix this here? How could we make this better? How could we encourage people to think before they press the button? How?

    What if “we” here at trike pilot did something about it? As with any situation, you need to understand the problem before you can solve it. I have an idea. A “pilot experience” reference.

    Here it is
    Pilots could get a 1 to 10 rating. 1 for less than 100 hours, less than 1 year. 10 for 1000 hours and 10 years.
    Instructors 11 to 20 rating. 11 for less than 100 hours instruction, less than 1 year, 20 for 1000 hours of instruction and 10 years of instructing.
    Manufacturers and manufacturers reps could get extra 10 points for years of service in the manufacturing of trikes, wings and training media.
    Negative points could be assigned for in accurate statements, inappropriate character references and/or childish name calling from -1 to -10.

    Even though anything can come out of anyone’s mouth/keyboard, at least it would be a reference for the new bees or anybody to determine the experience and credentials of the bloggers.

    If a pilot has a rating of 5, this is at least a pilot with at least 500 hours and 5 years. This is a respectable number. If someone has a minus 2, well……. At least everybody would have some sort of reference for the good of all.

    I know people do not want to be measured. Everybody wants to be equal but it would be handy for me and a value for new bees to have something.
  • Charlie Porter
    by Charlie Porter 7 years ago
    Paul,
    Are you really proposing that there be a rating system established in order to post here? That has to be the stupidest idea I have ever heard.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    No. Absolutly not. Just thinking about how to qualify the important information we are providing the public.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Yes Charlie that would be a stupid idea to have a rating system required to simply post. This was never my intention. Sorry I was not more clear on this and thankyou for making this more clear for all.
  • Charlie Porter
    by Charlie Porter 7 years ago
    Paul, This is a trike pilot SOCIAL site. It is not an area to supply important information to the public. It is an area for all people to give their opinion of things. Some of us give better opinions than others and some of us have more experience than others. That is what makes it fun. I would suggest that if you need to give any "important information" to the public you might consider setting up a web site for that.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    I was just throwing out an idea. Please try not to get so sensitive. Just exploring. Throwing out ideas. Although it is a SOCIAL website, whether you like it or not, it ends up providing important information to the public. People use this unimportant "bulls..." advice to help invest their life savings, make important life/death decisions, learn how/where to fly, get all types of important advice. Who knows where web sites will evolve. When I am gathering information it is always nice to know the experience of the provider.

    I do have multiple web sites exactly as you suggest for the important information. However, it is great to get other opinions and perspectives. www.BeATrikePilot.com
    www.Sport-Pilot-training.com
    www.BeASportPilot.com
    www.AviationTrikesForSale.com
    www.WeatherToFly.com
    www.Aviation-eLearning.com
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 7 years ago
    A little bit thicker skin please
  • Doug Boyle
    by Doug Boyle 7 years ago
    I am amazed with the passion that pours out through these pages and feel that a reader/blogger can sort through the relevance to him/her as well as the determination of qualification.

    Everybody knows something that another doesn't know. The reader is responsible for the final interpretation. When it comes to flying, or the contemplation thereof, availing oneself of all the information/experience is critical. There will always be opposing viewpoints but they all get sorted out as the journey continues. It's OK to disagree.

    Let's encourage the discourse and gently disagree as needed. It doesn't mean the passion should be silenced/regulated, but rather, understood. If understanding trumps beliefs then we all benefit through a wider range of exposure.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 years ago
    Well said Doug
  • B  Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 7 years ago
    Language is our common currency here and some days my wallet is empty.
  • Toby SkyDog
    by Toby SkyDog 6 years ago
    Wow. Everyone has an opinion. I would rather fly with someone who has plenty of experience. Has anybody ever flown with Paul and felt they were in danger? Has Paul ever performed extreme maneuvers with a passenger? Does Larry Mednick perform extreme maneuvers with passengers?
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 6 years ago
    I will deal with you Skydogs later. Yes they all think I need to be Mr Good, Captain Kangaroo, Mr Rogers as a DPE but the standards for a CFI are no different than a DPE.
  • Mike-in- Thailand
    by Mike-in- Thailand 6 years ago
    Skydogs - we're all in awe of your experience and wisdom; your opinions serve only to inspire and guide us.
  • Vickey Chambers
    by Vickey Chambers 6 years ago
    Wow Paul. It was really exciting seeing you do all those areo stunts! I'm impressed with your knowledge and you're cute too.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 6 years ago
    Vickey,
    Thanks. Only 140 lbs naked. That means more fuel, payload, climb rate, speed and range.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 6 years ago
    Thank you Marilyn also. Trike students used to want a complete training system specifically for them, so now they do, and so do you.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 6 years ago
    I read the entire thread today and now my head is spinning. The passion, the hatred, the personal attacks. I flew with Paul in Kauai, he was very professional, didn't do anything extreme, If anyone is interested in sharing the beauty of my experience in Kauai, Hawaii, here is the link with great music, Paul took all the in flight photos and I got to fly for the most part. Haters pls take a chill pill, the rest of you enjoy!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skUPaQbCvGA
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 6 years ago
    Rizwan .. nice video compilation of pics.
    Trike flying is a lot of fun. It carries an element of risk however and that risk needs to be managed. Any time a pilot decides to go past the operating limitations of any aircraft he is truly increasing that risk.
    I can tell you that experience does not help when it takes all but one mistake in one's lifetime touching the edges to go off the edge and die. That risk if desired should be taken alone by the pilot or by test pilots to test control limits of stability of the aircraft being tested. That is why aircraft have operating limits.
    There are aircraft whose operating limits specifically allow aerobatics. They were designed for it. No big deal doing aerobatics in them with proper training but doing a loop in a trike well that is a big deal because it was never designed for it and hence we should see both sides of the argument but surely the sane logical person in me wants to say, that Paul posted all kinds of warnings, advised against it and so on so why the problem? The problem is "Money and Greed". If Paul has any money or assets that can be touched and one of his student dies doing a loop (with Paul not having to do anything with him looping), this video right here will be used in a court in the US, I guarantee it 100%. In any other country that lawsuit against Paul won't even see the light of day but not here.

    Do you ever see an aerobatic pilot post video of a simple loop and go hey look at this? May be from an aerobatic rookie. A simple loop is a non-event in an aerobatic aircraft and training and there are good engineering reasons for that.

    The problem in the US unlike other countries (including country that you and me grew up in) is that "its always someone else's fault". People sometimes feel entitled for things that probably other cultures would laugh them out of the room for. US and Australia are few of the most litigious societies in the world bar none. Even when pilot does things alone, if something happens to him do you really think his/her spouse and estate is not going to sue the manufacturer of every part on that trike? I can assure you that 80% of the time they will.
    People ask why trikes and LSA are expensive. Well for part because of liability. Be safe out there.
    Today I found out sadly that there is a lawsuit against a propeller manufacturer who simply sold a propeller to someone who installed it on a S-LSA without prior approval of the manufacturer in writing and then got into a fatal accident. The propeller manufacturer is now on the hook for selling a propeller to someone without requiring knowledge of what aircraft that propeller was going to go on. That's akin to saying that if you crashed the car because you drank and drove, tire manufacturer should be sued. That's America for you.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 6 years ago
    It is all about risk management. As you will see from the risk management blog on triking, all trikers are at a 5 already. see http://www.trikepilot.com/forum/topic/654
    It is like someone breaking the law by going 56 MPH in a 55 MPH zone is OK to them but going 59 in a 55 zone is not OK? or 61, 62 65, 66? We hopefully all assume our own risks and limitations and everybody is different. Today trike limitations are a 60 degree bank. I am sure some one out there would criticize a 61 degree bank or maybe a 62, no it must be 65 degree to criticize and be unsafe. Perhaps 70?
    Everyone lives in their own world and safety bubble.
    Looping Hang gliders is extreme and done by many. Amazing the opinions about someone wanging a trike at 120 degrees. More than 60 but less than a 180 loop. HUH. Where do you draw the line?
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 6 years ago
    Thanks Rizwan. Great memories. I can tell you all that taking pictures with a camera, changing lenses while flying, and even putting a video camera on a trike adds risk. Is it worth it?
  • John Olson
    by John Olson 6 years ago
    Once upon a time it was NOT about risk managemant at all of course. That was back when all we had was common sense, which was good enough for most of us. We had common sense and we had flying too. But there were just not enough syllables in common sense and in flying so we got rid of that crap and now we run with aeronautical decision making/risk management and exercising weight-shift privileges. C'mon Pablo, get with it!
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 6 years ago
    You are welcome Paul, great memories, As far operating a camera and the risk associated with it, is it worth it? Hell yeah it is to me :) I guess depends on the individual too. I remember I asked you few months ago how to mount cameras on the trike and you told me that with my flying experience (under 100 hours at the time) that it was not worth the risk of distraction or any other potential risk (like camera flying through the prop). So for you haters out there, Paul is a safe instructor with sound advice for newbies like me (Although I went ahead and installed the camera on my trike anyway). That was my choice, infact it is an obesssion now to make cool professional looking videos.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 6 years ago
    Well- who cares if it is called risk management or common sense. Yes, this is basically the same thought process of staying alive. It is simply a language for the environment we have to adapt to. In America you speak American, In Mexico you speak Mexican, in France, you speak French, no brainer.

    Although some may not want to learn new terms, so be it. Same old S..t, new environment/terms/language. Please do not discredit those who are trying to adapt to a new environment/language and trying to move on.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 6 years ago
    Rizwan,
    Great picture video. That was one of the things I loved about flying 24,000 miles in Hawaii was getting great photos. Thanks for understanding about accepting the additional risk of photos/video. Yes it is worth the extra risk to me, but those who want to reduce risk should simply avoid it.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 6 years ago
    Abid, I agree with you, it is so sad how everyone is hell bent on making a quick buck. Few years ago I was in Utah visiting the paragliding school (I believe it was cloud 9), I met a German paraglider pilot there and he told me that even though his country (Germany) is smaller than the state of Utah. Germany had more paraglider pilots then we have in entire US of A and one reason he said was that people are so sue friendly here in the USA and it discourages the instructors because they are afraid of getting sued every minute of the day. It shouldn't be that way.

    Once upon a time (lol), before I enrolled in the University to study accounting and finance (arrrghh :( I was seriously thinking about becoming an A & P, but one of the reasons I discarded the idea was because I figured that, if I became an A & P one day, down the road someone will sue my behind.

    Lastly Abid, despite all the hurdles, risks and everything that was mentioned in this thread, I must say that you are doing one great service to us trikers by creating such a beautiful and a flawless machine. Sometimes I wish I was you (& if that is not a compliment then I don't know what is :).

    Hope to meet you in person someday.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 6 years ago
    Hi Rizwan,
    You don't want to be me. Trust me. People think this is all a dreamer's gravy train. Its double the work for quarter the money than a normal job. You got to be freaking crazy to do it. Do you want to be crazy?
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 6 years ago
    Hi Abid,
    That was my way of complementing your acheivements. Maybe I can join your team then we can be three peas in a pod...just kidding. Do I want to be crazy? LOL...I think I have seen my share of it. But, the fact is I want to keep my hobby and my job seperate. Flying is a hobby for me and I hope to keep it that way. I am 34 now, hopefully many many good years of flying are ahead of me. I would like to live a simple happy life. I moved from one podong town to another Podong town (population 12000) of La Grande, I don't make much as a banker but it helps me pay my bills and I am happy. I live a block away from my work, pay 500 in rent, walk to my work, life is as simple as it can get. My parents keep on insisting that I move to New York close to them, I might do that in a year or two (although I know I will hate every second of living in a big city), but they are my parents and over 60 and I am the eldest son and you know our culture (that is the only complication I have).

    At times I have thought of becoming a flight instructor but I know they are struggling too and there is so much of sweat equity involved in that job, teaching someone to fly from ground up is not an easy job, so we will see. I still admire you and your work. And for me the feeling is even special because we hail from the same homecountry, it gives me some bragging rights (even though I have contributed diddly squat) when I am talking to my other trike friends :)
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 6 years ago
    Hi Riz,
    I think there are a lot of other places between a 12000 people podong town and NYC :). How about those? I moved to Tampa from Rochester, NY in 1994. I won't miss it if I never saw Rochester ever again in my life. 5 years of RIT and wind, rain, sleet and snow and hardly any sun are ok by me. No more needed :). But Tampa Bay region is about 3 million people so its about where I would like to be.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 6 years ago
    Hi Abid,
    Well one reason I moved here was the job offer, that was foot in the door for me. I figured I would learn the ropes for a year and then move somewhere on the east coast, hopefully where we have all year flying weather. I had to accept this job because before this I was working as a Wal-mart manager with (two college degrees), I was so ashamed of working there that I told everyone (who asked what did I do for living) that I am a drug dealer :D Anyway, life is beautiful and there will be many horizons. Chao
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 6 years ago
    Paul, on your profile picture it says you are 4 years old, just wanted to let you know :)
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