Engine Out

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Engine out on takeoff. Proof that all the runway behind you is useless.

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43 Comments

  • Jozinko Sajan
    by Jozinko Sajan 8 months ago
    You had not turn... Im so sorry.
  • Frank Dempsey
    by Frank Dempsey 8 months ago
    That sucked. Sorry. You're right about the runway.
  • Jim Davidson
    by Jim Davidson 8 months ago
    Wasn't me. I found this video on You Tube and wanted to share for obvious reasons.
  • Jonathan Ratner
    by Jonathan Ratner 8 months ago
    I am repeatedly stunned by the incredible unreliability of the engines we use. I had a Yamaha snowmobile, the engine required NO maintenance during its nearly 20 years of use. Never had any issues with it. Any modern motorcycle engine runs for thousands of hours
  • Jozinko Sajan
    by Jozinko Sajan 8 months ago
    I agree Jonathan. A lot of people use Rotax snowmobile engines
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    We dont know why engine failed for one
    1 failure to warm engine to temp is clearly a way to seize a 2 stroke
    2. Dirty fuel filter , pump ect
    3 could be failure to turn on fuel flow!

    I do have snowmobiles that run for many years
    But loads like swinging a big 60inch prop at high rps.takes life of any engine down

    But iam certainly with you that we could have some better longer lasting engines too?

    The way i see it the pilot looked as if he wasnt letting it fully climb for alttitude. Or did he use all the runway available maybe.
    Not trying to be over critical i certainly hope he was ok?
    Sucks when we are handed suprises but we should always exspecting them particularly on t/0.

    It would have been my choice to keep flying straight and land ahead in the field past the sock. If you have a choice between wheat and wheat land in the rows.? Id rather go in realitive wind and straight. Be prepared always for a quick Adm.

    Paul hamilton has some really good videos on short field , mid field , and past the runway E/O.
    I have microsoft x flight simulater with an air creation trike in it.
    With a regular flight joy stick you can attach it upsidedown to the ceiling and attach a pvc control bar with some small screws. Attach a plunger cable to the throttle and build a throttle pedal with a spring to the floor.
    When iam not flying i can practice with a moderate sense of reality for many AdM deciscions.
    Its not perfect but it is really good for familurizing youre flight plans, radio comm channels, field obsticals such as towers and mountains.also familurizes yourself with runway designations.

    I dont think i would use a flight simulator like this for beggining trainning because it does distort your,e feel for the trike in reality.
    But it can clearly help build redundancy in proceedure?

    Thanks for puting this up and kudos for the pilot involved for puting it out their. We all learn and are safer watching the mistakes when they happen.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    If you look at :01 he had what apears as a ton of runway behind him. Use all the available runway . He clearly would have put it down straight ahead in the good grass.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    One more thing didnt anyone notice that the engine is still running at the end. What does that tell you?
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 8 months ago
    Sounds as if it's running lumpy though, how about something on the lines of a jetski key fob on a cord to cut the engine in case of whoopsies ??
  • Jim Davidson
    by Jim Davidson 8 months ago
    Reading through the comments on Youtube the pilot said he had a fuel line rupture resulting in fuel starvation but enough fuel to keep the engine idling after crash. I logged over 800 hours on two separate 503's. With regular spark plug changes, proper carb jetting and good clean fuel they are bullet proof engines. My reason for posting this video is to affirm the fact that the runway behind you is useless.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    Thanks jim. I thought it was something like that. I fly a 503 on my redback. You get sooo much anbiguous information on engine life. Ive got about 560 or so hours on it toatal . But clyde poser did a total upper end rebuild a 360 hrs. Makes me feel a little better when i hear someone getting more than 800
    I change the plugs yearly ,fuel lines pump. Filter and i always warm it up above 200 deg before flying.
    The runway behind you does you no good exspecially if you leave it their before takeoff.
  • Job Chithalan
    by Job Chithalan 8 months ago
    Past the runway threshold with not enough height to turn back is one of the worst times to have an engine failure.
    Do not understand why it landed on the front wheel!
    Poor trike geometry or a stall at the last moment?!
    I agree with WE about flying straight (into wind) and landing in wheat land in the rows.
    Pilot did not have shoulder straps either and can been seen to lunge forward. Hope he was okay!

    I have had a few engine failures in my time and had to land in long grass and ploughed up fields. But in single seaters with low landing speeds and sink rates. Luckily, damage was a broken rear axle once and a broken prop at an other time.
    As Jonathan pointed out engines are incredibily unreliable.
    Not just with ultralights; engine failure is not uncommon even among aircraft with Lycomings and Contis with so much of built in redundancy of systems.
    Hopefully, in the near future, there would be hybrid engines with two electrcal motors and props.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    Job good read. I really hope we get some really good improvements in motors.smaller lighter 4stroke replacements for 503, 582. Ive got my eyes open.
  • John Olson
    by John Olson 8 months ago
    If you stick with the centerline during takeoff as we are usually taught then yes runway behind you is useless. But if you fly a survival pattern then runway behind can save your bacon. Think about it.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    Ole iam not exactly sure what you mean by survival pattern. Unless you mean drifting off the side as you gain alt so you can reach the runway with a 180 please exsplain?
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 8 months ago
    Interesting idea John. I second WE please elaborate on the "survival pattern" always interested to hear anything which may help reduce risk.
  • Charles Moore
    by Charles Moore 8 months ago
    WE, I think you are correct on what John means. Drifting off to either side of the runway (depending on wind direction) puts the runway beside you instead of directly behind you. Making the turn back easier. If possible, depending on the airfield, that's what I do. I live in N.C and most airfields here are surrounded by trees so any extra margin for safety is good. I think survival pattern is an excellent term for it.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    I have thought about that pattern for some time. I do think john is correct and this is an advantage. I dont fly bizzy larger airports so i would have no problem doing this! But airports that have heavier traffic may be an issue with deviating from the pattern. God knows if a triker does anything different we surely will hear about it! But to me it makes perfect flight sense.
    But i think more importantly than survivor pattern is to not get lazy or in a hurry. Use all the available runway! Gives you enough altitude at mid field to land straight ahead if engine quits. And also enough altituide at the last 40%of the runway that you can perform a 270%turn back to the runway! If flying straight down the runway 180%+45%+45% reverse correction. So ole comes in the winner with the survivor pattern with a 45% drift off the runway with engine running . A 45% alignment correction than a true 180% in case of e/0 back to the runway. So probably up to debate.
    I do know that at the second elk river fly in. I had concidered a different pattern from the norm. Flying my soaring trike that didnt have the greatest climb rate and concidering the lack of any lz options , tall tree placement a small but challenging dirt road parralell to the runway. I thought long and hard about changing my pattern from normal to diagnal down wind legs keeping well over the runway till i had enough altitude to venture out to look for lift. I practiced that for a few flights and as luck would have it i was placed in a real senario i had been practicing for. Very calmly i went to minimum sink to not loose any precious altitude. And made a controlled practiced aproach back to a smooth landing. I was kinda proud of myself because my pattern plan work easily and well.
    Before i take off from any new runway i think its important to take a hard look at the unique characteristics ,grade , rotors, towers, drop offs. Like chelan airport theres a hugh drop off into lake chelan at the end of the runway. It would be very easy to miss in a good strong wind taking off mid field that youre flight plan put you low at the end of the runway right into the backside rotor.
    So if that pilot in the video above took a bit more time to taxi down the full length of that grass strip his flight plan would of allowed him to land staight as a piece of cake.
    Maybe more debate and opinions are needed here but i do like the survival pattern mentioned by ole.
    Thanks job and charles cant wait till theres a mini rotax 9-512 4 stroke 50hp-55hp that we can stick on for reliability and replace are 503s 582s
  • Tom Currier
    by Tom Currier 8 months ago
    I wasn't going to chime in on this but using all available runway is something I never do. In fact I'm usually up in the air by the time I hit the numbers, leaving about 4500' of runway in front of me......to me that seems like plenty of room to set her down in an engine failure and to add to that, the two runways at KCON where I fly out of are nearly perpendicular so a 90' turn would be all I need. I'm at 600' agl by the time I hit the end of the runway so plenty of room for a turn.

    My other runway being a lake gives me infinite options and again, I'm up with a few miles ahead of me, or at least plenty of room for a 90 degree turn in land
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    Tom you do it right! Perhaps i wasnt clear about what i ment about using all the runway. If you look at the video jim put up the trike started his take off roll mid field. This left him short of runway ahead and quickened his adm choice im which he made a bad one. So what iam suggesting is by starting at the beggining of the runway if you have a emergency at 100 - 300 ft agl you have alot of runway ahead to land straight. To me thats a wise adm and sounds like what hou already do. 600 ft mid field were in good shape if something goes wrong?
  • Tom Currier
    by Tom Currier 8 months ago
    Yup, I completely misinterpreted the comments about using all the runway. Open mouth A, insert foot B.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    Lol tom well i insert foot A and open mouth B so dont feel bad. Keep them great videos coming tom.
  • Lucian Bartosik
    by Lucian Bartosik 8 months ago
    The pilot made several mistakes here, resulting in damage and possible injury. Of course number one was not back taxiing to use all the available runway.

    Number two was not landing straight ahead into that nice field in front of him the moment he realized he had engine problems, unless there were cables in the way that he could not avoid by flying over or under prior to touch down.

    Number three was not simply turning 90 left and once at 90, not pulling in the bar all the way to quickly get to the ground, then flaring and touching down and rolling out towards the row of trees we saw, to a full stop. From the looks of things, that was an already harvested/cut area of the field and he would have had plenty of roll out to stop.

    Number four was the fact that he stalled his wing in the last moments of flight, trying to get all the way back around. What was he trying to do that for? If you are attempting that, for what ever reason, then watch your rate of descent and when it is getting close to critically close to the ground, just roll out level and land. Don"t keep it in a turn with the bar out from your body as he did, all the way into the ground.

    It is obvious to any trained eye that he stalled it in the turn in the last moments of flight without even trying to level out and touch down. Had he changed any of the things mentioned above, he would have most probably had a safe landing and been able to fly again without any aircraft repair other than his engine problems, what ever they were.
  • Lucian Bartosik
    by Lucian Bartosik 8 months ago
    As for drifting to the side of the runway centre line, I have taught that since I began teaching way back into the nineties, if you are flying out of a field that has no where else to land in an engine out on take off situation. This is of course to be used if there are no open spaces to put it down in, either side of the runway or none straight ahead.

    If you ask most pilots how many degrees of turn is required to get back on the runway if you have an engine out on take off, many if not most will say 180 degrees, which is of course very wrong. It is in fact 270 degrees total to get it back on the runway in the opposite direction to your take off.

    However, if you allow yourself, when there is need of course due to runway location, to drift to the side of the runway centre line, up to a point of course, when climbing out and you have an engine failure, then it will be just 180 degrees of turn to get it back on the runway.

    And it is obvious that the pilot must know their aircraft well and use proper judgement when in the obvious descent in the turn with no thrust available, to keep a safe airspeed and altitude for proper execution of the maneuver in order to get it back safely on the runway.

    I know for a fact that there are a number of instructors out there who do not teach this, and /or never even gave it thought. Go and ask your pilot friends and instructor, if they are not reading this, how many degrees are required to get the aircraft back on the runway if there is an engine failure on take off, given that there is sufficient altitude at that moment to consider turning around, and see what you get as an answer. You may well be surprised at the answers you hear.
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 8 months ago
    There are a few airstrips near me with zero or near zero options other than the runway and I see why the "survival pattern" is an excellent idea and will be practicing it as soon as I can get back in the air, soon I hope.

    Lucian, I fear you will have to explain this bit slowly to me, and please, do not be afraid of offending my by simplifying it, when I don't understand it's usually because I "over think" it.

    If, for example I am on a runway 00/18 and I take off on the 00 and require to do an emergency landing by doing a u turn onto 18 where does the extra 90° come from if I commence make my turn in one sweep. I just know when you've explained it I'm going to put my head in my hands and say "DOOOH".

    Cheers

    Phil
  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 8 months ago
    Hey Phil- Try drawing the maneuver you suggest on a piece of paper and you will see that after completing a U turn after climbing straight out you will not be over the runway but on the downwind portion of the traffic portion. Or try a U turn with your car in a big parking lot and see how many degrees of turning it requires to turn around and return to the same lane.
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 8 months ago
    GOT IT !!! What did I say, over thinking it. Take the centre line then do a 180° and I'm facing the opposite direction BUT not in line with the runway, therefore I have to continue to turn in the same direction to re-find the centreline and then turn opposite direction again to re-align with the runway. Good analogy with the car park. On take off, veer (for example) left 45° then if I have an emergency, turn right 180°+45° to re-align with the centre line saving 45° of turn (have I got it?) Thanks Gregg.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 8 months ago
    Have added a few tools (picture and video) to help understand this engine failure on takeoff
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 8 months ago
    Jim,
    Thanks this is a very important discussion topic...
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    Phillip paul has some really good videos on the different phases of engine out. This was all discussed a few years ago about the 270%turn.
    I refresh myself on a flight simulator at the beginning to every season of flying to these procedures.
    I think this is probably one of the most important things a pilot can review as to safety. Taking off is one place where a very quick and correct adm must take place.
    Maybe for the sake of safety paul could post them im here for everyone.
    I think paul suggest that pilots try these manuvers with altitude first!

    Paul hamilton awhile back i remember you had a flight simulator where you attached a control bar to a joy stick ! I made one and still use it. Its not quite exact as real but it does help alot in gaining redundancy in familurizing proceedure on those days you cant fly.
    would you recomend that?
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    How many pilots dont use point of destination as exsplained by dennis pagen?
    Its a very useful tool for hang glider pilots and also in a trike when youre engine fails and you have one chance of making a lz. This is also taught in sail plane instruction.
    If you take youre eye in a glidescope and afix it on a possable landing spot. If that spot is rising you most likely have little chance of making that spot. If that spot is rapidly sinking you will most likely overshoot. But you are in good shape if it is slightly sinking.
    I dont want to confuse this with watching that point to touchdown. But you certainly can use this in a engine out with some altitude to help you decern weather or not you can reach a lz!
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 8 months ago
    The second part of Ole's comment is regarding having enough runway behind you. Many trikes will out climb their glide which means the 180 turn afforded by drifting to the down wind (key word) side of the runway may put you on a final without enough runway left making the pilot overshoot his departure point. Knowing how to also "dog leg" or overshoot the centerline and make that 270 degree turn to the approach could be another critical component.
  • jeff trike
    by jeff trike 8 months ago
    I have noticed over the years that the diverging point (which shows where the power off glide will take .my trike in calm winds) is lined up with the top of cover over the lowers half the nose tube on my trike. This means I can't make it to any point on the runway that appears above the top of cover. A strong headwind will shift this around slightly, but it is a pretty good indicator most of the time. I use it to adjust my glide slope to I touch down near the stripes on the runway. And it would also quickly tell me if I would make the threshold or not it I lost power on final.

    You can do the same thing and note where the diverging point appears relative to the nose tube on your trike to help you set up your approaches on final.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    Not sure i fully understand that larry? In my redback if i dont have enough runway behind me i should have enough in front of me. Theoredicly isint it that if you start your take off roll at the beginning of the runway instead of mid field you should have plenty of room to land straight ahead. And climbing moderatly by the time you have used up 60% of the runway you should have (exspessially if you use the oles suvivor method) be able to exicute a 180% or a 270% turn with not much difficulty.
    Maybe i am misunderstanding what you are saying.
    Also there iam sure differences in difficulty performing these senarios depending on what type of trike your flying. Runway used and available is much different when you are traveling much faster speeds!
    I respect your training larry and oles and abids and many others so please correct me if iam short on understanding!
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    That is an excellent method jeff and good fly by the seat of your pants piloting skills.
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 8 months ago
    I "think", that Larry is saying that a trike on full power will climb at a much steeper rate that it will descend on glide. Example a climb rate may be 800 feet per minute, after 30 seconds climb you would be at 400 feet and maybe not very far down the runway. Make a 270° (see I've learnt) and the amount of runway in front of you (previously behind) may be too short to land because you are too high. Larry please correct and or elaborate and explain fully your "dog leg".

    Phil
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 8 months ago
    In many cases particularly with short takeoff trikes by the time you reach midfield on a short strip you cannot make it back down straight ahead and a quick 180 will overshoot you again off the other end of the runway.

    With a Cessna they say at 400 feet it's ok to make the turn back which usually means there is a landing spot 3/4 mile behind them. With the trike you might have more like 1/4 mile behind you and 1/4 mile ahead of you at 400 AGL on a 2500' strip. This means straight ahead won't work and neither will a 180.

    Trikes can turn around in 2-300' depending on model and pilot and runways may be even shorter. Being able to descend and start a flare below the point of engine failure whether there is a heading change or a continuation to land the direction of takeoff is a key skill. Continuing straight ahead from 300' may eat up another 600
    ' of runway which may run you off the runway. A 'dog leg' would be a 45 to the downwind side of the runway then a 90 degree back to the runway followed by another 45 to line up again. Or basically some kind of S turn to get down. Or if at the end of the runway and turning around turn 90 degrees and extend away from the runway before making a 135 back and followed by a 45 to line back up again.

    If you are flying a low performance shallow climb angle aircraft the offset with the 180 is all you ever need to focus on. With many of our trikes on a day with a nice little head wind the 180 at 3-400 AGL will not put a runway you can make back in front of you that you can land on and stop unless you took off mid field or further down the runway. So for example, a REVO with small wing on a no wind day will have the space behind to land if you can make the 180, but a Redback with a 10 MPH headwind will not.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    Thanks phill , sure larry that makes perfect sense and i couldnt agree more. But on that 10mph day in my red back iam going to be landing straight ahead.
    So in fairness i think its important to mention ( know thy ship) . There are differences in judgement in proceedure depending on the machine we are flying.
    So watching training videos gives us the proceedure but practicing with altitude gives us the judgement!
    So this i think makes all the more important what jeff mentioned about having a reference point on your trike to help judge e/o glide scope reach or what i mentioned earlier of point of destination.
    Many pilots i see rely on the newest latest insterments . I believe yes their a nessesity. But a good pilot should have a good feel, judgement of weather hes flying close to stall , slow, medium fast. A good visual calculation of altitude. And a really good feel for point of destination.
    One thing i really like to do is on a good smooth air day go up to 10 thousand msl and idle down and reference point of destination. How far can i presume reach to an lz crossing a tree filled mountainous landscape like here in montana. Many of these videos flying enormous landscapes like henry does in his revo or jeff gilky does you can bet they have developed a very good feel for how far they can reach an escape lz.
    Another good example is youre exstream flying video larry. Pretty dam talented and encredable skill. But i can bet that in that video you arnt looking at your insterments much? In runway e/o theres not much adm time available so its one of the beautys of flying a trike is that you can feel that wing and what its doing.
    I dont ever remember feeling the difference flying a v-35 bannaza from a piper sundowner unless i was cross referencing my insterments.
    Trikes i think have some incredable advantages at critical altitudes taking off over fixed wings. Very seldom does a fixed wing have a choice other than straight ahead wings level in a runway engine failure.
    So when that ga pilot starts in how them trike thingys are dangerous at his airport ask him to do a 270% turn in his 210.
    I may not be the most exsperienced pilot or talented. But i have spent alot of my time working on ga , corperate, and mylitary flight lines.
    I can tell with certainty that i dont see the discussions on proceedure as much as i see here. And their are plenty of ga pilots that drink while flying or have blaytent disregaurd for the rules. Or have poor understanding of mc conditions.
    I admire my fellow trike and hang glider pilots.for their interest in sharing thoughts on safety ,pilot knowlege and sharing the beauty of our shared dream. Ok lets talk about golf!
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 8 months ago
    Nope, I've search right, left and centre and still cannot find a trike call "The Golf".
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    Roflmao phill
  • Jozinko Sajan
    by Jozinko Sajan 8 months ago
    Its very hard to train engine off after take off. Then I requre from my students to use full power to reach as higher point of flight as he can with short time. Min to 200ft AGL we are going with full power. This is the comfort point from which you can turn back and land safely. If we have not enough of height for turning back, we do shortening (S turns) if we have enough time and height :))
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 8 months ago
    Joz my slovakian buddy. I remember watching an engine out in person you traveled half way around the world verticly to exsperience landing in a sheep padock. What a terrific job you and kyle did .Perfectly calm missing the only tree for miles! Engine out of the trike over to the rebuild factory and finished the next day . And back on the trike and on for kyle to fly ,1700 miles the next day . Impressive indeed.
    But the auzzies have it so easy flying there flight exams! When the flight instructor suprizes the student with an engine out flying over the out back. All the student has to do is point to anyware and say. (Well bloody el mate rieegt ther and make sure theirs nothing to biet yowu or hop on twoo liegs to get in your weiy ) It just not fair.
  • Bryan Tuffnell
    by Bryan Tuffnell 8 months ago
    Another factor is that most of us find it easier to assess where we'll touch down when viewing angles from the side rather than in front. In other words, the off-centreline drift makes it easier for most people to pick whether or not there is sufficient room to land ahead, or sufficient altitude for a 270 turn. It's easy and fun to practice.
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