503 rotax pukes.wmv

eg: stopmotion, new-york, street
pistons seized (even 503s die some-time!) the ground was frozen, and bumpy!( 20deg ).my 12 meter wing didn't like slowing down.this happened on 1st january 2011, hell of a way to start the new year! it gets worse! in april my wallet and id was stolen! in july i had my shoulder re-manufactured and the opperation failed! so i,m stuck with a 76year old joint! and the year ain't over yet!

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38 Comments

  • Jim T
    by Jim T 6 years ago
    Thanks for posting this Monty.

    Good work on the landing. I have done hundreds of engine out landings but none of them were unexpected.

    Did you ever figure out the cause?
  • Diego Sagrera
    by Diego Sagrera 6 years ago
    not enough oil in the gas? or to much oil in the gas? what happened?
  • B  Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 6 years ago
    Nice emergency landing and a good demonstration of locating and using a bailout LZ.
  • Tom Donovan
    by Tom Donovan 6 years ago
    Hi Monty, nice landing. What happend? Im running a 503 so would be good to know. Hey, whats that stuffed bird in the back of your trike!
  • Tony DeFreece
    by Tony DeFreece 6 years ago
    Yes, ...really want to know the cause if you've figured it out. She went quiet at the right time, too. 30 seconds earlier and you may have had a forced landing in the scrub brush. So glad you're okay.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 6 years ago
    2 strokes run great until they stop. Do you know the cause. Stuck rings, lack of lube, cold seizure? Bad mood? How many hours?
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 6 years ago
    Monty, glad you are ok. Can I make a Monday morning quarter back comment, if you don't mind. You wrote in your description that your 12 meter wing didn't like slowing down. Well I didn't even see you try to slow it down. The control bar even at touchdown was no where to be seen anywhere even remotely close to the compression strut or nose strut. At touchdown, you should be as slow as possible ideally and the control bar should be at or very near the nose strut. Yours was not even in the view. You were a full foot away from the strut. May be because you were understandably nervous. But check your video for your critique again, you did not slow your wing down or make an attempt to do so. Wing can only do what you tell it to do. If you don't tell it, it won't try on its own.
  • Uwe Goehl
    by Uwe Goehl 6 years ago
    Monty, this is a great video and I appreciate you sharing it with us for the shared learning experience. You certainly found a good landing spot.

    I also wondered about what Abid has just mentioned and I hope you don't mind the input. I was also wondering about after you got out of the trike, the switches (which I believe would have included the ignition or magneto switches) were still in the flight position (ON).

    My background is with piston airplanes and we learn that magnetos on and handling the prop potentially a very dangerous situation. Where I presently fly we also pay close attention to this on the trike. Yet I know that two-stroke engines spin at a much higher RPM than your Lycoming or Continental airplane engines.

    I am asking because I would like to learn some of the more experienced guys' thoughts on this. Anybody?
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 6 years ago
    Glad you were OK, thanks for sharing.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 6 years ago
    Monty, great video! awesome you captured it on video!

    I think this video depicts the ideal time to use the soft field landing technique. Getting the trike down is only half of the challenge sometimes. Most flipped and destroyed trikes are the result of an after touchdown front fork failure or flip over caused by pulling the control bar in.

    A true soft field landing technique would have kept the bar pinned to the compression strut until the trike had slowed way way down to almost walking speed. no brakes would have been applied... Of course if you don't have the luxury of a long enough area and you must get the trike stopped, then the only alternative is to do it like you did in the video. Judging by what I can see in the video it would have made a night and day difference on the landing roll.

    There are a ton of trike pilots out there that don't know what a soft field landing is or simply are not proficient to do them. My recommendation is to learn it. It can make the difference between a nice landing and a balled up trike in these off field situations. Not picking on you here Monty, you did great!

    Jim T's dead stick video shows a soft field landing as best I can tell from the camera angle. Jim can you confirm?

    I can make a short video of landing in the same rough terrain with and without the soft field technique for comparison sake. I think it will shock many to see the difference.
  • Tony DeFreece
    by Tony DeFreece 6 years ago
    Larry, would love to see that video. Thank you in advance.
  • Jim T
    by Jim T 6 years ago
    Larry, I am landing on a turf runway and I am using the technique you describe. I have never had an unintended engine out but I have done hundreds of landings with the engine off. Practice and repetition are the key to doing things right.

    In a perfect engine out landing the control bar should touch the compression strut the same time the wheels touch the runway.

    Again Monty, thanks for sharing the video. The most important thing is you got it on the ground without injury to yourself or damage to you trike. I think that is something we can all admire.
  • Jim T
    by Jim T 6 years ago
    Just watched the video again. Less than 40 seconds from engine out to touch down. I would imagine it seemed a lot less.

    One more thing that Uwe touched on. I would also turn off the mags and power switches before landing. I believe that is the electric fuel pump running even after you get out of the trike. If a crash would occur there is less chance of fire with all switches in the off position.
  • Bradley  Waters
    by Bradley Waters 6 years ago
    Monty...well sitting here from my side of the computer, it looks like you did everything correctly! You had some info givrn to you about your technique, but no one asked what kind of terrain you were landing on? I am not used to seeing that type of terrain so I cannot comment good or bad. The ground looked pretty hard so a bar in or netraul landing seemed to be the right choice. Maybe there was a cross wind whereby you needed to stick it to the ground...who knows. By stating that most or every soft field landing needs the bar out is wrong. All the trikers that fly over grain fields will know that you need to come in hot and don't start the flare untill you are already shredding grain and then flare hard. A bar out landing over a stand of grain, will most 100% get you upside down when the mains grab the grain. Lots of things happen in those last seconds, but at least you kept your witts about you when everything finally stopped...Bradley
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 6 years ago
    Hi Bradley, I don't mean to argue but in my book ... every landing, regardless of corn, grain, mud, tarmac, grass needs to be with the bar out at the point of touchdown. When the wheels touch the ground, you are better off as slow as possible if you can swing it. There are a few circumstances where you may not be able to do this but that's a tangent that doesn't apply when there is space out there.
    You can come in hot because of gradient or wind gusts. No problem there but you should wipe that airspeed while in ground effect and by the time you are touching the ground, the trike can be slow. When the main wheels touchdown perhaps you are 5 inches from the strut and then push out the rest to keep the front wheel light. Once on the ground, you can certainly pull the bar in smoothly for the braking effect that people talk about but that's once the machines has had a 3 points on the ground touched, not before.
    That's what my technique be in a properly sorted machine. There are some machine wing combos that are not quite properly sorted IMHO where the wing will in fact stall out and have a stall break at 8 inches from the strut. Well that's different. But the idea is that touchdown itself can be as slow as the machine will allow. There is hardly any exceptions to that. I didn't see that being different in flying and landing next to corn fields, wheat fields or Soyabean fields, crosswind, headwind etc. A proper approach that takes into account that depending on your aircraft's energy retention, you may float 100, 200 feet in ground effect burning off any excess airspeed you may have carried due to turbulence, crosswind, gusty winds etc. puts our landings on the mark. Each aircraft will have different energy retention characteristics. Single surface wings will typically not hold the energy much while more efficient double surface wings can hold it for a while.
  • Jan Ferreira
    by Jan Ferreira 6 years ago
    Monty, good landing, it is always easy to figure out what could have been done better after the fact but under the circumstances you did well. I know the feeling since I had 3 engine out landings in my flying career.I walked away with 2 undamaged and one I totaled the aircraft in a mud field. I have two questions, why didn't you land on the dirt road on your right when your engine quit? and how did you get back home again..:>)
  • Diego Sagrera
    by Diego Sagrera 6 years ago
    Monty, I practice engine outs all the time, but when the engine really quits it is a whole new ball game, I have had 3 engine outs, 1 in a 582 witch it seized due to corrosion in the crank in a borrowed trike and the other 2 have been my fault in my 503, the first, I took off with the choke half way opened, the engine never quit but I experienced a loss of power. The second I did a dive in idle and I leaned the engine out, live and learn!. Did you ever know why did your 503 seized up on you?
    Fly Safe.
  • Bradley  Waters
    by Bradley Waters 6 years ago
    Abid...no trouble with an argue. I guess if we were to talk about this type of technique, I guess the simplest way to think of it would be as follows...do you really want to bleed off all of your airspeed 3 or 4 feet above the ground just before touch down? A stand of grain can be that tall and corn is even taller! You drop from that height, you are going to bust somthing. I guess if we talk about the drag created by the crop when the mains grab and then basically throws you down to the ground...I would rather be closer to it then floating 3 or 4 feet above it. Every instructor has their own way of doing things. I can show you pictures of what a trike looks like when you try to land on top of the crop then land in it...Bradley
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 6 years ago
    abid, theres more than one way to skin a cat (or get on the ground safely).....hugs monty
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 6 years ago
    @Bradley: Of course you are not going to bleed off all of your airspeed 3 or 4 feet off the ground Bradley. That would be asinine.

    And no I am not talking about landing on top of corn. We are talking about landing on a suitable landing spot whether it be next to a corn field or trees or not.
    Generally in a crosswind obstacles produce some mechanical turbulence over them creating gradient etc. Many pilots in low momentum aircraft tend to safeguard against those effects by increasing the approach speed a bit more than normal and that speed can still be bled off before touching the ground. There is absolutely no good and viable reason on any type of aircraft that I know of to touchdown faster than you have to. I have yet to hear of a good argument made for that specific issue.

    Actually landing on corn. Well, that's a whole different ballgame. I only saw someone actually land on top of corn at Cushing field in an Airborne 582XT after the 582 quit and the Ricky Duncan was in the back seat with him. Ricky supposedly put his legs against the control bar from the back seat to brace it and literally completely stalled the trike just above the corn. He said that was the best way to make sure the occupants were not hurt. The trike broke in 3 distinct places as Ricky expected and took the forces of the crash away. Both occupants walked away without any injury.

    Going by that account and seeing the trike and where it landed, I guess I would follow suit to what Ricky did. Personally I'd try and avoid landing -on- corn, I'd rather land on the ground next to it. That's what I though you were talking about but it seems you were actually possibly talking about landing on the corn. I'd stall it still just above the corn but stall it completely but I was not referring to landing on top of it.

    I guess to clarify my point is actual touchdown of a trike bar neutral is NEVER the best technique regardless of where you are. It certainly means you are touching down faster than you have to on ground that is not a prepared field for landing. I'd rather take that airspeed and keep it in the air and touchdown as slow as I can so I have the lowest amount of ground handling to do in completely unexpected and unprepared field. In fact I'd land as slow as I can on even prepared fields. There is just no reason not to touchdown as slow as I can anywhere, except when I am lazy. I especially see this coming from short armed trike pilots. That's laziness as well. Lean forward from the lower back and you've got much better control on your arms with them bent. Taller pilots of course have to do this to a much lesser degree. There is a whole set of problems that comes from landing bar neutral (read FAST) and that happens on the ground. In an emergency, the effects of that are much clearer as you handle terrain you have not been on nor is it prepared for any aircraft. Most 3 wheeled vehicles are prone to flip over handing those types of situations if things get out of control
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 6 years ago
    @Monty. Yes Monty there are many ways of doing many things but we should always starve to do it a better way next time than we did already or we are stuck, right. Hopefully none of us are stuck here. That's the whole point of learning.
    BTW, Monty, thanks for posting your comments to this video. When you posted them on different blogs, each blog was a standalone entity and they didn't connect with each other or the subject matter because the head of the subject matter is this thread. I suspect you are new to this type of media and still figuring your way around it.
    A blog is for a certain subject or a diary for a certain date. For instance if you wanted, you could have written a blog with this video embedded in it and then people would comment under your blog and those comments would make sense as they would relate to that blog. That's kind of the point; to keep continuity and one place for one subject. I hope that makes sense. I am sure you will soon figure it all out. You are already way farther than when you started posting here in a very short time. Best
  • Elton Hodges
    by Elton Hodges 6 years ago
    As they say "a good landing is one you walk away from, an excellent landing is one in which you can use the aircraft again". ;-)
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 6 years ago
    Bradley, only a power on (power controlled) short field landing involves being slow at 3-4' off the ground.

    If there is room, I would recommend coming in hot with a dead stick. BUT!!! don't touch down hot, and a soft field landing is ideal for bumpy HARD packed terrain or soft, which is a full bar out landing. So if there is another idea you have when we use the term "soft field landing" You may want to look into that further. On the other hand if you believe a soft field landing isn't the best method for the terrain in the video, then I guess I'll have to try and prove to you it would have been by making a video to show the difference.

    I have had 20 engine outs. I know that sounds like a made up rounded off number, but it really is 20 to date. Most test pilots are around 5 engine outs per 1000 hours roughly from what I have heard. Although the dawn of the 912 has now changed that considerably. I am quite sure the soft field landing saved me from flipping over at least twice. And luckily I have never damaged an aircraft or gotten hurt in any of these cases.

    Wait to see the video and then we can debate. I think right now there is way too much guessing about what soft field really means or accomplishes.

    And Monty, thank you for posting this. It's a great real world example of something I have found the majority of trike pilots would have done precisly what you did. And again I will demonstrate what I think your technique was in the video and what Abid is referring to. I will also do it dead stick and land on my tire tracks the second time for apples to apples comparison of the "JAR FACTOR"
  • Charlie Porter
    by Charlie Porter 6 years ago
    Abid, re: landing in corn... I've landed in tall corn a couple of times flying a pteradactyl pfledge and I would do it a bit differently. If you level off just above the corn and stall, the nose will drop and you will impact at a steeper angle. If you fly right down into the corn and shove the bar out just as you start feeling the trike slow down you will impact at a shallower angle. The extra speed won't matter too much as your rollout will be short either way.

    Putting your feet on the control bar sounds nice when talking on TPS, but is not an option for the 99% of us that fly from the front seat. It is sort of like saying you would jump out when making a water landing. It is something that won't happen in reality.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 6 years ago
    That makes sense Charlie. Thats definetly an area I know I have 0 experience with. Good to discuss this stuff.

    I have landed in the drink, but once was in a fixed wing, and once I had floats :-). I gernaded FPNA's 582 Outback amphib on my first test flight with it.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 6 years ago
    @Charlie: I think the technique you describe is exactly what I am saying within 6 inches of height. Yes I know that Airborne went from 40 to 0 in 30 feet in the corn. That's what broke it up.
    I understand you can't put your feet against the bar if you are the only one in the trike of course but some times you are not the only one in the trike. However, I think it is a good idea to brace for that bar trying to come into your chest when things like that happen in a trike. You can brace with your arms correctly as well. Hey been there, done that hanging upside down without even as much as a bruise on my chest so if you do it, it does have a good chance of protecting your chest. If you don't (one person we know faced similar fate as me with a flipped trike) but because he didn't brace properly with his arms, he had ribs broken etc. etc. and a 6 month recovery. I didn't have many hours on me either at the time but somehow I remembered to use my arms at the right time.
  • Bradley  Waters
    by Bradley Waters 6 years ago
    Hi everyone...If you guys have not attempted to do a landing or had the bad chance to land in tall grass or a crop of grain...then please do not comment on the proper way to do a landing in it. I am not saying that I know everything about trikes but after 16 years and almost 2900 hours...all in PWS...and flying in an area which is all grain field terrain, I guess I would be an expert. Abid I was not mentioning about trying to land beside the corn, that would be too easy and Larry I hope I did not make you think that a tall grass landing is the same as a soft field landing...as they are not the same teqhnique. I guess this computer thingy is hard for me to get my point across, but Charilie has explained it best...come in with more speed, cut through the crop untill you think you are as close to the ground as can be, flare hard to prevent it from going nose over. If the Airborne pilot would have done his landing this way, he most likley would have not balled it up into 3 sections. I really don't care if he is the head guy at Airborne or not, as this does not make him a better pilot than the rest of us. They don't fly over tall tracts of grain because I don't think they are grain farmers down there. I guess the picture I sent was not enough proof. Bradley
  • Elton Hodges
    by Elton Hodges 6 years ago
    Relax all,

    Yep, yours is bigger and it's been in more crops, or not.

    Everyone take what they will from it and just be happy the man walked away.

    I'm new to the game, and it's no different here than any other site I've visited, the big guys want to be right, even though they have different thoughts.
    I don't want to hear all the different you're wrong and I'm right stuff.
    When the S**T hits the fan, I'll take what's important in this video and remember it. FIND A CLEAR FIELD THAT WILL ALLOW A SAFE RUNOUT. If I come in a bit hot then try to slow down, if I can't do it, get wings level and round out as much as I can without dropping to critical airspeed too high up.
    Just get down safe. If I screw up and ball it, make sure I put it on here so everyone can tell me what I did wrong, and then argue about it.

    :) Insolent little F**K aren't I.

    By the way Abid, I'll be coming down to Florida in two weeks (Bradenton). I'd love to stop by and see a REVO and the factory.
    Cathy Montgomery says nice things about you and Larry. It would be neat to see your toys in person.
    Any chance of my coming out to visit?
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 6 years ago
    Bradley, I have made no mention of anything other than the terrain in the video. I wouldn't comment about the corn since I have no training or experience in corn, trees, etc.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 6 years ago
    Hey Elton we are open 7 days a week. Give a call ahead or an email to make sure we know exactly when you are coming
  • Bradley  Waters
    by Bradley Waters 6 years ago
    Abid...sorry... I don't really read all of your post because I get bored before the end. They are always very long and complicated with more info introduced than needed. This is my fault. I wanted to let others know that there are other ways than the Abid way to land in other types of circumstances than always' in your book' with the bar fully out before touch down. Clearly you do not want to listen to other ways of doing things other than your own. Us old guys still remember when your name started floating around the computer world and still nothing has changed. Be a good instructor and ask questions next time. Ask me what I was trying to get across rather than state your way or no way. I would put that happy face thing here, but I do not know how to do that...Bradley
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 6 years ago
    excellently put bradley, i wish i had thought of it...........hugs monty ps, if abid sneezed, and my pants fell down, would he laugh? i think not. he needs to 'lighten up a bit' (just my opinion)
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 6 years ago
    Bradley -- Yes I do not want to listen to any other way of landing on normal terrain than slow the aircraft down as much as possible just at the point of touchdown (whether trike or an airplane or a gyro), engine out or engine on. That is the correct way to land. The rest is hocus pocus without any solid reasoning presented besides laziness which even I practice sometimes but I try not to make excuses for it. Short enough I hope for even you to read :)
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 6 years ago
    Hey Monty -- if I sneezed and your pants fell down, heck yeah I would laugh. That is lightening up. If I could keep a straight serious face through something like that well that would be a pretty stiff upper lip or may be a British sense of humor. I don't possess either of those :)
  • Elton Hodges
    by Elton Hodges 6 years ago
    Hi Larry,

    I'll be at Disneyworld with the wife and little one from Nov. 25th to Dec. 3rd. We'll be in Bradenton from the 3rd till 11th.
    I was thinking of the 5th or 6th. I'll let the wife and daughter do some shopping and I'll zip over to see you and get a look at where the magic happens.
    I'll email you when I'm there and set a solid time.

    Thanks for the reply,

    E
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 6 years ago
    elton i've always wanted to go to disneyworld, will you take me?...............monty
  • Tom Donovan
    by Tom Donovan 6 years ago
    Me to please!!
  • Elton Hodges
    by Elton Hodges 6 years ago
    Monty, Tom,

    The more the merrier, hell, we could even go three ways on a REVO while we're down there.
    No more puking 503's.
    Monty, you could fly it back first, give you a chance to fly something that won't leave you with your drawers down around your ankles and not even the courtesty of a reach around (I too have a 503 and eagerly await my first engine out).
    Tom, you can have the second leg of the flight, the one where you fly it up to Canada for me because it's going to be -20 degrees Celcius and I sure as hell am not sporting the cojones to fly it in that weather.
    I'm going to be doing some jumping at Skydive City (4000+) and counting over the past 20 years. You two might as well join me just in case you really have a bad day and decide it's better to get out and walk than land that danged lawnchair. ;)
    Honestly, I do fly my trike with my jump gear in a modified container that makes it thin and comfortable and it goes well with the seat. I have the main base packed with slider down and it will open in under 200 feet. It's the last resort hail Mary for when I'm flying since I don't have a BRS yet (I'd only consider bailing over an empty area and only with major structural failure) anything else would be attempt at landing. Plus, after so many years of jumping, I'd prefer being away from the wreck than in it.
    I'm probably the only guy on this site that feels this way and I can just imagine the flaming I'm going to get.
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