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69 Comments

  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 2 months ago
    High powered tug trike with BMW R1200 fuel injected engine.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    Very nice!!
  • Scott Williams
    by Scott Williams 2 months ago
    Really cool Gregg! My GTE repower with a R1150 starts this weekend with pulling my old 582 grey head off.
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 2 months ago
    Very nice. What was the cost to move over to BMW ?
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 months ago
    Gregg, Clean installation. More or less power/climb than the 912S? Claimed HP? Have you compared?
  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 2 months ago
    Now there's some good questions, better than "how much does it cost." The R1200 engine is rated at 110hp at 7,750rpm. I have the engine derated with the prop pitch to 6,500rpm so that would be about 100hp. Next time out I'm going to adjust it to 6,700 rpm. The trike aerotows beautifully with ample power and proper airspeed for the hang gliders.
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 2 months ago
    I am sorry Gregg, I will try and formulate questions more fitting of your status in future. I thought a reasonable question would have deserved a reasonable answer.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 months ago
    Yes Philip we need to send Gregg to sensitivity training along with Larry, Abid and perhaps myself :-)

    It is hard to put a cost onto something like this because all the research, trial, error, parts that must be scrapped/reworked and engineering/figuring it out can be much more costly than the actual parts. So a cost on a project like this is a tough one to quantify. It seams like any simple trike job, and this is a complex one, takes more time, money and effort than you think.

    I am going to guess that decreasing the pitch to get 7750 RPM at will not produce that much more "thrust" at wide open throttle WOT.
  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 2 months ago
    You got that right Paul. This is the third muffler system and a keeper. Second oil cooler as the first one was too small. This Setrab cooler was $800. Interesting that this alternator is rated at 60amps where the Rotax 912 alternator is 18amps. The engine redline is 8,500 rpm with max rated hp on a motorcycle is at 7,750 rpm. I have it propped now at 6,500 which works well and you are likely correct that more prop rpm may not increase performance much. It has been a fun project.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 months ago
    I failed sensitivity training. It had something to do with possibly seeing roughly 700 people getting killed around me on a random terror shooting when I was 17 or my father getting shot and bleeding to death after freshman year when I was not even 19 in the summer. So when I hear some whining, from my perspective, I say get the heck over it. Just saying. Now for Larry, Paul etc. I don't know why they are so insensitive :)
  • Patrick Crofton
    by Patrick Crofton 2 months ago
    Abid,
    Many of us have been in various situations in life and have lost family and friends. Your losses we can understand and are with you on this.
    Obviously, Paul’s comment struck a soft spot in regards to “sensitivity training”.
    Your comment referenced “So when I hear some whining, from my perspective, I say get the heck over it. Just saying”.
    Yep, I think a lot of are with you on the stop whining. I thought this thread was about strapping a BMW 1200 on to the Ass of a trike and what the $$ (estimated) would be?
    Just saying…
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 months ago
    I didn't even know what exactly this thread was about Patrick. I come to this forum once a day and I just saw my name in a comment so I made some jest from it. Carry on.
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 2 months ago
    I assume you had no problem accepting the first part of my comment "very nice" the second part seemed to complicate matters. Simply a matter of good manners I think, one posts, one receives comments, reply to those comments correctly or risk showing your lack of manners.... SIMPLES. Being rude is easy, "blaming" life events is a cop out.
  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 2 months ago
    The question "how much does it cost" (or variations of that question) is simply obnoxious. Looks like good weather in the forecast so you all enjoy some flying!
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 2 months ago
    Strange your views when viewing your postings there are numerous times you make reference to cost/prices. Simply my 582 now has 580hrs and I am looking for a potential replacement for her, and therefore am trying to ascertain the options and their costs. I misguidedly thought that to ask a fellow triker the costs he had incurred would be wise and informative. Wise, obviously not, informative, certainly, but not as I would have hoped or that I would wish to give in response to a reasonable question. But, as you say, the weather is good, I will be in the air and I wouldn't want to exacerbate your demeanor, and there are many others who will offer the advice I seek.
  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 2 months ago
    Looking forward to your next in-flight video!
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 2 months ago
    Philip, here is an email I got from AEROS (Trike and Wing manufacturer in Ukraine) regarding BMW engine on a trike instead of a ROTAX, I hope this helps answer your question. They say and I quote

    "We used to make trikes with BMW engine some time ago. Although BMW is
    powerful and reliable we found this engine as too complicated for the
    trike, plenty of electronics makes the installation rather difficult.
    Unlike BMW, Rotax engines are designed especially for ultralight
    aviation and are provided with post-sale service and support by the
    manufacturer. That is why prefer Rotax engines for our trikes.

    The trike with new BMW engine will be not cheaper than the same trike
    with Rotax 912."


    I hope this was helpful, I suppose if a person really knew what they were doing, they could bring the costs down. Having said that lately I have noticed more trikes with 912 engine on Barnstormers, some for as low as 16,000 dollars. Something worth looking into.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 months ago
    Gees, my comment "sensitivity training" was only meant to make fun/humor of responses here. Glad we can all move through.
  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 2 months ago
    Fitting a trike with a BMW engine for many has nothing to do with "saving money". Why would anyone switch a perfectly running 582 engine for a BMW? It's not to save money. The BMW powered trikes are awesome and a great alternative to the Rotax 912. The clutch fitted with the BMW makes for very easy starting and idle which feels very different than a 912 start. The BMW has a very different feel and sound. It is a reliable engine with parts easily available at the local BMW motorcycle shop or online. This is the best trike I have flown for aerotowing but I've never aerotowed with a 912.
    So if you like the idea of flying a BMW go for it but don't plan on saving money with a conversion.
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 2 months ago
    Whilst money is always at the back of my head, and the front of my wifes the truth is soon I will have to look for a replacement and I can either go Rotax or look at other options. I've always been one for not always following the crowd, the BMWs I've seen videos of from the east, thank you for your reply Rizwan, sound great and the engines just look soooo nice to me, but so do some of the other engine options. Which way will I go, I don't know, as I fly more than 100hrs per year, we will be finding out before the end of next year for sure. Paul, it's not a problem for me, I'm too old and can't remember most things said only a few minutes ago.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    Philip,
    Scott Wile and I are working on a BMW conversion for his Aircreation GTE.
    We started the project a year ago, but got halted due to my trike being stolen.

    Long story short, I re-started the project this past weekend and will be working on it steadily. I'm planning on taking lots of pics, and perhaps some videos so that many of the same questions that come up will hopefully be answered.

    I'll post pics of the project here and on FB. Just something that may help if you're interested.
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 2 months ago
    Looking forward to seeing them Leo, thank you
  • Scott Williams
    by Scott Williams 2 months ago
    Philip, I've learned a lot so far on this BMW project option but I can only speak from a R1150 engine version perspective (80hp). Gregg's is a R1200 and that is an entirely different beast. I also drive a R1150R motorcycle so that helps me know them better. It's a great engine but it does have a boxer rock to it (a bit shakie), the sound is awesome; there's lots of positives and negatives for sure. Cost would not be doable for me save two important details,,, #1, Leo is a fabricator and is making a custom engine bracket from scratch. That's no small detail! There's two other issues to crack of the ECU/harness and gearbox with clutch. #2 I was lucky when Leo found an unused gear box online for super cheap. I'm still fighting through this ECU and harness mess but I'm making progress. I agree with Gregg that a 912UL is a better option for lots of reasons. Can a used R1150 or R1200 engine be acquired cheaply online? Yes but,, you have a long way to go until you have a reliable aircraft version installed and those parts, trial and error don't come cheap at all.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 months ago
    Doesn't a company by the name of Takeoff sell the converted BMW engines as a ready to bolt on engine? Are they still in business?
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    That's correct Larry, and they're still in business.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 2 months ago
    Philip,

    www.aircraftgraphix.com/bmw%20conversion.htm shows a BMW R100 conversion, not sure if that would help. I don't know anything about the difference between R100 and the other engines. But it may give you some ideas.

    The other site is www.takeoff-ul.de. That one is in German. I believe that is the one Larry is talking about.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 months ago
    I met the owner of Takeoff at the Sebring airshow in 2011. We had a discussion about whether the engine should be centered or offset for P factor. He had no idea offsetting the motor could eliminate the P factor. Interesting discussion... I hope Leo is building an offset into the motor mount.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    Scott and I have discussed that very subject among ourselves after doing some research and talking with others whom have done the conversion as well.

    The general consensus seems to be that the engine needs no offset for P factor.
    Beto Di Benedetto happens to be one of those among us who had converted his trike with a BMW. In fact, I believe it was the first in Argentina, and I am consulting him through out the build.

    Regardless, I can however provide a feature in the mount design to offset it if need be. That would be easy enough.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 months ago
    Yeah? here's what you are in for watch at 1:00

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwMarP59BGU&t=94s

    This poor guy makes 4 corrections in the last scene to keep the wings level...

    The BMW is a torque monster and worse than a 912ULS

    Heck, Airborne was trying to tell people the motor in the center was just fine up until this year when they finally fixed the P factor problem.

    I STRONGLY recommend offsetting the BMW engine 3/4" to the right
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 2 months ago
    WOW ! that is an amazing amount of twist/torque
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    Interesting video. ( wish it had subtitles)

    As I said, I was planning on incorporating a feature regardless simply because it would give Scott a range to adjust to rather than pigeon hole him into just one angle setting.

    Funny you suggest 3/4 Larry, I was shooting for 0-1" adjustment. So here's a question....
    Should I forgo the adjustable version and fabricate the mount with the 3/4 offset as a rigid P factor angle? Would small adjustments be made by adding /subtracting washers?
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 months ago
    Adjustable would be awesome since I know you are capable of doing a simple clean system. I like the washer/spacer idea.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    /thumbs up. I'll share my design with ya before I machine it out.
  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 2 months ago
    My Aeros factory mount had no offset but I was easily able to adjust that. It is best to determine the offset in degrees as desired, I have installed 3 degrees offset. This is a similar thing I did to a 503 powered trike years ago after talking with Larry and Abid. Installing ofset is not a new concept but it seems it has taken others forever to implement this important idea.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    That was my understanding on the Aeros as well Gregg. Was the adjustment a substantial improvement?
  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 2 months ago
    Substantial? Well I think it fly's much better (I.e straight) but some pilots don't seem to notice a difference (with offset) as they just "give the wing what it needs". I think the difference is significant. Not sure what 3/4" means but I suggest you determine what offset you install by computing the offset in degrees.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 months ago
    You can shift a motor laterally keeping it straight (distance) by moving it to the side or rotate the motor in the yaw axis (degrees)

    Both methods counter P factor. On firewall installations angling the motor shifts the centerline of the prop to the wrong side (creating a bogger problem) which then requires additional angle to compensate. Shifting sideways is usually easier and just as effective.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    Thank you guys! Very helpful!
  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 2 months ago
    If you use the trigonometry function on your smart phone you can easily determine the offset in degrees if you are rotating the engine installation. If, for example, your engine mount is 10" wide, a 3 degree offset would require a bushing (or stack of washers) of .52" on the right side.
  • Scott Williams
    by Scott Williams 2 months ago
    Seriously thanks guys! This is some good stuff and much needed. The Air Creation chassis mount (very similar to a Tanarg) that mates to the engine bracket gives us some good options and incorporates vibration isolation as well. It gives us a good start and is made for the 912UL. The R1150 is a bit heavier but not enough to worry about. Can’t tell you how excited I am to tinker with this on my GTE! My intent is to make that my travel trike… hear that Andrew? Travel…
  • Scott Williams
    by Scott Williams 2 months ago
    BTW, my intent is to use the 4 bladed Arplast off my 582 setup so that means the offset will be needed more as I believe more blades increases the need right?
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 months ago
    Note: sometimes these are used interchangeably but they are different. You have torque (opposite and equal reaction) and P factor (asymmetric blade loading from different angles of attack on the blades) to deal with.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 months ago
    More blades does not mean more P factor. In fact the Arplast prop is a tiny diameter which may help eliminate some. But as a rule of thumb I have found changing props makes very little difference and there is no "good prop" to help reduce P factor.

    Sometimes we see 4:1 gear box 582s turning 4,5 &6 blade props making mad P factor, but the gear reduction is actually the responsible part and not the prop.

    A fixed HP and fixed ratio will create the problem. TORQUE at the prop WILL create the P factor problem. Example a 582 with 4:1 reduction has more P factor than a 80 HP 2.43:1 912. But a 2.62:1 582 needs no offset in any way and has no noticeable P factor.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    Very very informative Larry! That's the best explanation I've read.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 months ago
    Hi All:
    Propeller Torque Effect, P-Factor and Gyroscopic Precession are three different things acting on a system like our trikes. They are well understood physical phenomenon that cause different moments and they are all real. Putting the engine of high powered and torque straight simply means the effect is there but the designer did not care to counter it. As you can see from that promotional video of German Eagle trike, how much correction he needs to put in. I used to know Alex here in Tampa Bay region whose Pegasus Quantum 582 was converted to BMW engine and I only had to see it fly to know the engine was put in straight. It was plainly obvious.
    There are simple ways of calculating the exact propeller torque effect you will have and you can also estimate P-factor given hang and geometry pretty well and design in corrections. Do some research. You will enjoy the learning and techniques to correct these. Aircraft designers have done them for many decades.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 months ago
    If you actually look at most trike designs like the 912XT for example, the P factor ( descending left blade, looking at the trike from behind, creates more thrust on the left) with all other things being equal would make the nose yaw right, when in fact the nose still yaws left. So asymmetrical thrust is NOT what we are actually fighting if you want to get technical.

    Turn the prop blades 90 degrees in the hub and lock the wheel brakes and put the trike out on an ice skating rink and a 912 trike will still do donuts to the left with no thrust and only the resistance of the prop (paddle). Gyroscopic precession...
  • Scott Williams
    by Scott Williams 2 months ago
    This is making much more sense now and with all this sage input I believe we should put in the 3/4in offset Leo. It sounds like it's going to need it as I do have a relatively high 3:1 ratio on a torque heavy engine. Sold!
  • wexford air
    by wexford air 2 months ago
    Forgive me Scott if you've already done this but have you spoken to Giles or any of the guys at air creation? I remember seeing a clipper trike a few years back with a BMW on it. Maybe it was a factory fit?
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    Wex, it's been done on a GTE before. Not sure if it's the folks you're referring to though.
    I have tons of images of BMW engines on trikes, and the GTE is among them.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    This link to my photobucket has a pic of the GTE with BMW combo.....
    http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a154/Athis/BMW_Trike_1_zpsw2w53r1d.jpg
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    Scott, sounds like everyone agrees 3/4 offset is the way to go.

    How much does Trike weight play into these factors?
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 2 months ago
    Leo, just had a look at your photobucket and I've come over all funny. What a lovely looking setup you have, she looks GREAT !!! Why all the French decals ??
  • wexford air
    by wexford air 2 months ago
    I tried looking at the address you posted Leo but all I get is something telling me to update my account
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    Philip, the GTE in the Picture you saw isn't mine. It was just an example to show the GTE has already been outfitted with a BMW engine.

    Wex, not sure how that works. My photobucket is public, so on my end there are no barriers. They may or may not require a log in or sign up. Not sure, but I don't think they do. Sounds like you may have used photobucket before and it wants to update your account.
  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 2 months ago
    I'm still not sure what you mean by 3/4" offset. If your engine mount is 10" wide, like most BMW engine mounts then 3/4" would be about 4.5 degrees of offset which is too much. 3 degrees is more appropriate which would be 1/2" at 10".
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 months ago
    Gregg, We are talking about moving the prop centerline 3/4" to the right. Keeping the engine at 0 degrees.
  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 2 months ago
    Oh, moving the engine over, got it.
  • Doug Boyle
    by Doug Boyle 2 months ago
    Moving the front of the engine, rather than the rear. Right Larry?
  • Scott Williams
    by Scott Williams 2 months ago
    It sounds like the whole engine assembly is kept straight at 0 degrees, relative to inline with the trike chassis but off to the right by 3/4in. A parallel thrust line offset to the right of trike chassis centerline by 3/4in. Did I get that right Larry?
  • Scott Williams
    by Scott Williams 2 months ago
    The GTE with BMW1150 combo will be a bit ass end heavy when done but not so much as to create a problem. A French ULA club flew one for many years but it was a custom engine bracket for that one too. It won't be a perfect combination (the 582 is a perfect engine for the GTE) but it will look amazing, sound incredible and be a great travel trike. Eventually I'd like to get a Mustang 15m for the travel setup but that's a long way down the road.
  • Andy Hughes
    by Andy Hughes 2 months ago
    Look at the Kangook paramotor web site. It shows different engine mounting plate configurations due to rotation and clutch set up. Even these small powered engines have to be adjusted from the crank center line due to torque. I know as I also fly paramotors and have flown with an engine wrongly placed, you could feel the twist, changed and the torque twist was eliminated. Small changes make a huge difference in torque twist due to clutch and rotation.
  • Andy Hughes
    by Andy Hughes 2 months ago
    https://vimeo.com/118266302 Go to 00:56 to see what I mean.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    "t sounds like the whole engine assembly is kept straight at 0 degrees, relative to inline with the trike chassis but off to the right by 3/4in. A parallel thrust line offset to the right of trike chassis centerline by 3/4in. Did I get that right Larry?"

    Yes, that's what Larry is saying. ;)
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 months ago
    Andy, good point. The belt redrive spinning in the prop the same direction as the crankshaft increases the offset required on the motor to fly straight. The guys that run the Polini Thor 250 brag about the lack of P factor due to the prop turning opposite the engine because it has an actual gearbox.

    Kawasaki 440 with a belt redrive has pretty bad P factor. But a 503 doesn't even though it has way more horsepower.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 months ago
    Doug, yes, for twisting the motor that is the preferred method which is most effective.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 months ago
    Yes Scott. The REVOLT runs a straight motor offset to the side. On a dynafocal motor mount angling the motor and keeping the prop centered becomes very difficult. So the simple solution is to move the motor sideways. Obviously you can do it like Gregg did it as well.
  • Walt Baydo
    by Walt Baydo 2 months ago
    Leo and Scott, fun project! Larry, great illustrations making it understandable. Gregg, C'mon! Tell us how much cold cash you sank into that baby! ;-)
  • Scott Williams
    by Scott Williams 2 months ago
    Walt, would that calculation have a conversion correction of 1.85 cool factor? It sure should! I think this is one of those cases where someone does something cuz it's badass instead of making "the most practical sense". Kind of like a 1000Hp Bugatti Veyron; no one needs 1000Hp! It's totally badass though! BMW trike... badass.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 months ago
    Hahahahaha!! ^^^^^^^^^^^
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