Should Trike wings have ratings just like PPG wings?
Hi all,
While we discuss the reason behind John Farmer's accident. Tony brought up a point that I have also discussed in the past. And I would like to know your opinion on that.
As you all may know that Paragliding and Powered Paragliding wings have ratings. And despite the fact that as far FAA is concerned sports like Powered Paragliding are under FAR 103 rules, so their is no license required.
However because the wings have ratings, it helps a new comer and even experienced pilot to make the wing purchase decision.
How do you as pilots feel about a wing rating system?
Is it practical?
Do you think it will help Trike pilots?
What challenges do you see in implementing such a system?
Some while ago we had a blog discussing if Spiral recovery should be part of Practice Standard Maneuvers and with Trike pilots' input we were able to make Spiral Recovery a part of Practical Standard Maneuvers.
My hope with this blog is to see if we could reach a consensus on this topic. So we could do take a practical measure and hopefuly no more lives are lost.
Regards,
Rizwan
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The FAA tried this with the make/model but it got thrown out because it was additional regulation and a hassle. Just like airplanes, pilots are responsible to use common sense in transitioning to new aircraft types.
There is currently the LSA speed at 100MPH/87 knots above/below per 61.327 now.
Who would develop the criteria, what would the criteria be, who would regulate, and who would test/verify.
We should all do a better job to promote common sense transition training as airplanes do.
That is my opinion.
Another great beer-and-steak topic to try and order wings! Mine's a pale ale, venison medium rare...
We should also remember there have been more than a couple of cases where a pilot was warned not to fly an advanced set up and they ignored the advice. Would a high rating have been more persuasive in those cases?
I know there are lots of cases where the person buying a new Wing has no one to help them, but I can site most cases where test flights/ first in type flights that have gone horribly wrong had a qualified instructor at the same airport willing to help.
While I firmly believe that transition training is a good idea, in my opinion it is a mistake to regard some trikes as 'more dangerous' than others. A pilot who cannot coordinate a turn is a simply a bad pilot, regardless of what they fly.
Some trikes may be less vulnerable to some aspects of bad pilot technique, but that shouldn't excuse poor skills. Joe said it well: ultimate responsibility resides with the pilot. Bad techniques can kill on any trike, and contrary to what some believe, no trike is immune to such issues as spiral dives.
To fly any aircraft takes a solid set of skills, and I think that's the bottom line, not rating trikes as to their 'forgiveness' of bad handling. If we're to get the fatality rate down, I believe the first place we need to open our minds and look at the skills we have as a pilots. And the way to upskill is to get good instruction.
I know I have previously shared here my story of my experience with first trike instructor. He got on me rather quickly about not needing to do the J turn when initiating a roll. He said we really do not need to do that in trikes like you do with HG. He did not have a HG background. Well I spent a few hours with him but decided not to return to him for further instruction and that was one of the reasons for my decision. I can't help but think how many students he may have taken on that had no prior WSC experience adopting his flying technique and perhaps later buying a trike / wing combination that would be a bit more vulnerable to bad technique in more extreme roll maneuvers. Maybe what we need is a bit more rigor in vetting capabilities and flying techniques from DPE's involved in granting trike pilots the CFI credentials. Hard to believe I just said that but I did. Well that instructor gave up instruction many years ago.
In my view there are different degrees of coordination that may be needed or work well with different wings / trikes. A huge J swing is not needed with many wings and rounding out a roll with a small pitch up input maybe all that is needed to coordinate a turn. At least some billow equalization can happen with a small pitch up input to finish a turn and that may be just enough to get the desired response even in steeper banks with some slip. But yes some level of pitch input should be combined or coupled with roll inputs and pilots that never learn that need to unlearn their bad technique and learn better technique.
I do think you're right; I believe better instruction would save lives. And I think Larry Mednick did the trike community a huge service in bringing the spiral dive issue to the centre of our attention and deserves credit; we've got a concrete example of two lives saved. If we keep hammering at turn control, those who listen will benefit. "No more lives lost" would take perfect piloting; we should at least aim for perfection. If we miss, we'll get to be good.
Back in the days when we wernt hang gliding about 10 of us hangies would hang out and do slope combat. A good cordinated turn and a emelman turn finally got me some respect and a good pilots wing chopped off from above. Maybe different movements on a rc radio transmitter but it sure helps you understand the principles.
I too had an instructor tell me i didnt need to carve my turns joe? I couldnt agree with you bryan ,paul ,larry more!
Great to hear your words of wisdom on these subjects. Training and execution of co ordinated turns is obviously a life preserving, important technique and in a fixed wing aircraft we have a turn/slip indicator to help manage this phenomenon.
I remember seeing Larry video with a string taped to the front screen of his trike showing the effects of side slipping along the runway. Could this be used as a rudimentary turn/slip indicator in a trike?.
I believe I fly co ordinated turns and mine is a wing which is probably relatively forgiving (Bionix 15) however what are the practical indicators in flight that a turn is properly co ordinated and what are the symptoms of an uncordinated turn?.
Forgive me if these questions are somewhat rudimentary however I would appreciate some clarity.
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In a hang gliders no one was with me to judge other than i lived..ln a trike carving a turn i think is easy. I maybe lacking in long term exsperience in faster wings. but looking at the data of arrow s wing fatalitys a few that were friends of mine and the majority trained pilots and some high hour pilots. If some wild behavior and fatalitys in the arrow. S wing are due to uncordinated turns .than what are we saying about the quality of training out there. Shouldnt you know how to cordinate a wing turn by the time you leave your instructor?
John Glynn
Bryan, My eyeball is one of the earlier models however I think it still serves me well. Given your feedback Larry about the symptoms of an uncoordinated turn I am sure I am coordinating my turns even accounting for the forgiving characteristics of the Bionix wing. Essentially, as I understand, we are just adjusting the wing shape slightly (by pushing out slightly as we enter a turn) which has the equivalent effect of a rudder in 3 axis in achieving a coordinated turn.
I have a few days of flying coming up so amongst other things the suggested practice techniques will be on my agenda.
I talked with henry about it . Great speed range ,fast very light roll pressure , looks like it is very forgiving with not cordinating your turns perfectly. Some pitch pressure but that is cured by electric trim. Great for penetrating that bumpy day flying. At 90 mph top speed i think putting that mix together is an acomplishment. Do i have all that right.
Someday i like to fly it. With all this talk about instability in uncordinated turns . As henry told me the rival x is very easy to fly fast wing. These are qualitys wings should have in my book!
Hope that puts some real world perspective on it. In the next post I’ll
Post the link to the 1.5 hour video of the XP 15 pilot learning to fly his REVO RIVAL X.
I think of stability as being a wing doing what its designed for when you want it to do it . And of course being flown correctly. Anyways i know henry likes your rival x alot. Based on what ive seen in your,e videos and testimony from other pilots i say it has some really my kind of likable qualitys! Lot to be said for the safety of a good roll rate if flown correctly. Ive only had a taste of electric trim flying in austrailia and with leo fitzgerald . But mixed with the roll rate on the rival × and the way henry discribes its handling in turbulance and your hands off discription of returning to level flight . Thats qualitys i like in a wing personally! Top speed is 90? Is that vne? Anyways i like your,e flagship!
Another wing i liked was the gt5 and 6 just felt good flying it.
One day id love to get you in my log book thanks
Personally i dont like the term cordinating your turn. To me its a more technical term, I have always liked terms that relate more to pilot feel like carving your turns.. As an artist i identify more woth the flow and feeling of action. For example for the winter i am a lift operater at a ski aera. Part of my job is to assist in getting skiers and snowboarders off the lift. New snowboarders have an aweful time on my steep ramp. When i see a newbie snow boarder coming up with an instructor and the instructor says put the weight on the front of the board 70% of the time they crash in the ramp. Iam really good at getting them off the chair. As the chair passes i tell them relax , keep your foot on the board, stand up straight ( lean forward) it works almost every time. And i get a smile and thumbs up! If i think of after initiating my bank of carving my turn theirs a graceful feel of a little pressure carving that turn. Now if iam wrong please correct me but ive spent hours admireing videos of great pilots particularly larrys. (And yes theirs some brown nosing going on here but you never know when publishers clearing house may knock on your door). When i watch larrys exstreem video i see a pilot who has mastered the feel of his wing. Yes he may have mastered the knowlege but thats not what i see working between the brain and the imput. A truly talented pilot has mastered the feel of flight! IF i feel that iam deteriorating in my skills i have no problem going to an instructor and just getting on top of it.when you are flying good you feel it !
'Carving' sounds like a pretty good word to me. A skier will understand that there's no slip or skid and that the g forces are felt perpendicular to the 'lean'. 'Balance' is the GA term used here in NZ but carving is certainly how it feels.
I was lucky to share the air over a paddock in the Owens Valley with Larry Tudor, back when I was a hotshot kid in the early 80's. We were both in good hang gliders and we had a ton of height to play with, and with the arrogance of youth I thought I'd be competing with a master aerobatics pilot and looping and spinning away that altitude with him. Instead of putting on an aerobatics display, Larry knocked my socks off with the most beautiful flying I have ever seen in any aircraft: mostly lazy 8s, probably never exceeding 60 degrees of bank and +/- 30 of pitch. But every movement was perfect: the rolls were tight, back to back, and always reversed at the bottom of the dives; maximum bank was always precisely at the apex of pitch; everything was smoooooth and graceful. He gently guided his aircraft through maneuvers, it was never shoved or forced or brutal. Loads came on and went off slowly. It changed the way I thought about flying, and I guess I've been trying to catch up since. I try to pick were I'll rotate on takeoff and make every turn precise and land on the pre-picked spot whenever I fly, because I was inspired that day - not to be the best, which I don't care about, but the best that I can be. And like you say: when you fly good you feel it, and for me it's a great feeling.
And that wealth of exsperience passing and transfered into your trike flying, wingsuit flying. Brings tears to my eyes thinking of the spirit and adventure everyone had back then. Jonathan livingston Seagull possessed me back then ,Still does. Although it models itself in fiction,inspirering ,enlightning a young mind with the thrill of flight. You know bryan theirs that part in the pages where Jonathan gull makes it to that enlightend beach finally and their meets this brilliant gull who teaches him to just think as a thought . You know bryan i see a distant beach i think maybe New Zealand. Theres a trike , a campfire , a dome tent and i think maybe theirs more to that book than just fiction.
Something I love about flying other things is the chance to be a beginner again. I find it great to have a totally blank slate and start from zero, picking up band new skills. And be scared witless from time to time!
Hope you make it here for that beer and steak, and an overnight flight to a beach. We'll have a lot of stories to swap!
Of course i remember watching that but i cant remember where i think it was at a hang gliding party. I got my ol hang gliding buddy back into flying trikes . So then he bought a ww falcon hang glider . Then he moved on to really nice ww sport 2 . Keeps sending me pictures of him at mingus 14 thousand. But flying my soaring trike is so convienient.
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