Revo v. Tanarg

Published by: Glade Montgomery on 20th Feb 2012 | View all blogs by Glade Montgomery

I'm a new WSC pilot, and am loving it.  I purchased an AC Buggy prior to my first lesson.  I soloed a couple of months ago, and have been flying the heck out of that Buggy (somewhat cold this time of the year here in the great State of Washington --  but, oh well). 

Like many new pilots who start with a more "junior" level aircraft, I've quickly developed the itch for something more substantial.  I happened to have significant hangar exposure to AC Tanargs, and could not resist feeling they were rather awesome.  On top of that, they're obviously much better suited for my 6'3" (short-torso, long-legged) frame than is my little Buggy. 

I'm also a computer guy, and could not help but encounter incredibly impressive online references to the Evolution Revo.   I spent a lot of time on that company's website (much more real info offered there than you'll ever find online regarding AC products).  The more I saw, the more I was convinced Larry Mednick is not merely an incredible pilot.  This guy is positively passionate -- beyond determined to make the best WSC aircraft possible, and in regard to every detail. 

Frankly, I like the best.  Indeed, I somewhat crave it. 

I've not yet flown a Tanarg, and plan to do so soon.  This last weekend, however, I had my first opportunity to see and fly the Revo.  I was on a business trip in San Antonio, and decided to extend it by flying to Tampa. 

As above-intimated, my expectations had been raised to a very high level.  Were they disappointed?  To be very candid, not even in a little tiny bit.  Larry had a series of Revo trikes in various stages of production, allowing me to carefully examine (and in minute detail) the engineering and materials involved at every level.  There was only one element I saw that looked remotely pedestrian.  It was the mount for the BRS (which is of course supplied by BRS Aerospace, and is not an Evolution product).  It was, indeed, fascinating how that particular element looked out-of-place (in a sense inferior) in comparison to all the other elements in the Revo trike. 

The one sad thing about my trip is the weather did not cooperate.  Larry, his dad Phil and staff were all beyond terrific.  The weather was contrary.  We managed to do 20-minutes real flying time in Larry's own Revo with 10-meter wing.  But an amazing 20 minutes it was.   Speed, agility, control.  I so much wanted to spend more time.  Alas, I had the deadline of a return flight home. 

So far as I can presently see, it appears to me the downsides in the Revo versus Tanarg are less-prevalent storage (the Revo offers no multiplicity of soft-pouches, as does the Tanarg), and total pricing that's a bit higher.  I expect to do extensive real-life testing of a Tanarg in the very near future, and will report further at such time.  In the meantime, I invite comment from any others with interest.  

Comments

105 Comments

  • Doug Boyle
    by Doug Boyle 5 years ago
    Hi Glade, I fly a Tanarg and my partner, Todd Halver, flies a Revo. Before I respond to your blog let me preface mine with the fact that Todd and I are Revo dealers for the Mid-Atlantic. With that being said I'd like to add that Todd just finished a XC from upper NC to Sebring, FL in less than 10 hours. He was able to carry all his needs in the Revo, with the addition of a very nice luggage device in the backseat. Also, below both seats in the Revo are compartments for the smaller, more frequented items, as I'm certain you've already observed.

    More accomplished XC pilots find all kinds of nooks and crannys to store bundles, especially when the backseat is occupied. Barry Maggio flew 10 hours from Connecticut with his copilot to visit us last year in a Monsoon (very similar to Revo) and had everything he needed stuck here, there, and everywhere.

    The Tanarg's cockpit is well thought-out and is extremely comfortable. I can't, however, readily agree with you on the price difference. Ask the CA gentleman, Jake, what he just paid for his new Tanarg. I think you'll see what I mean. If you're going to pay somewhere south of 100k for your ultimate flying machine then a few thousand here or there is not going to trump the qualities you're ultimately wanting to own. Both are great machines but above all make your decision based on your mission and the qualities you find important. Blue skies!
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 5 years ago
    Oh god, Revo v. Tanarg, Tanarg v. Revo, Tanevo, Revarg .... didn't we just do this a thousand times (I'll try and gather links to all the previous discussions, then all you have to do is click them in order to see all the blood and gore and previously stated things).

    I'm not a dealer of ANYTHING, I do love the Tanarg, but I think that isn't half as interesting as this statement I found above: "many new pilots who start with a more "junior" level aircraft ..."

    So, why is there this constant push for people not to feel like a manly pilot unless they're flying a giant expensive cruiser class trike? (or in many cases just parking one in a hangar). There are so many cool more simple trikes that get the job done, in many ways much better (certainly more bang for the buck (initial and ongoing)). On that note, I'm seriously considering a nice soaring trike- electric would be cool. This push for big expensive reminds me of the push the past 15 years for everyone to own a McMansion ... and now we see that push wasn't all it was cracked up to be. McMansions aren't automatically manly, and simple houses probably aren't "junior" after all, but rather very desirable and more enjoyable.
    I almost left motorcycling when I moved "up" to the biggest baddest newest 2000CC monster with chrome everything and every bell & whistle. Sold it at a huge loss and got a simple single piston thumper KLR 650 enduro and love it.
    I do fly a larger cruiser trike (mostly because my wife I adore said she wasn't going unless comfortable), so I hope I have the right to plead for some calmness of thought and inner peace with the many different aspects of many different trikes that make them spectacular and at the same time stand against the pressure for an arms race to buy the most loaded big thing to gain hangar respect. (not that the poster was doing that, but there seems to be in general a push for "moving up"-- in hang gliding, we called it "Moving up AND OUT of the sport" by getting the biggest baddest latest thing out there (I had heard of that syndrome, but succumbed to the push up anyway- I sold my favorite all around wing, that I could do anything on (in favor of the latest sexy carbon fiber racing topless that was just a smidge faster) and have always missed her).
    So, this is not a plug or push for any trike- rather a notion that the only moving up that really matters is gaining altitude.

    Did I mention my thoughts on wanting to be "The Fastest Turtle in the Forest?"
  • Chris Brandon
    by Chris Brandon 5 years ago
    Just a comment to mix it up a bit...thispost is all about the T & R having features that will appeal to all pilots for all the very good reasons of comfort, affordability, style and performance.
    Yes these features are of great importance..
    IMO - A priority is Aerodynamic Stability in various atmospheric conditions...we don/t have a tail!!!
    If you have ever witnessed a trike tumble/fatality you will be for-EVER changed in the head....about flexwing pitch stability.
    Many years ago now..my 1st consideration to fly AC machines stemmed from the compliance of AC wings to the DULV Flexwing Pitch Rig Tests ..and my witness of the first Australian trike tumble fatality...very sad & un-necessary!
    The German DULV & USAHGMA have been testing hang gliders for decades!
    But really, how many trike manufacturers have a Certificate of Compliance to substantiate the aerodynamic stability of their 70 knot 2 seat rocket ships????
    Manufacturers of wings that demonstrate reliable flight envelope characteristics (tested beyond normal AOA) are the winners for me.
    Yes..the inflight handling will always be heavy/stiffer, 0.7 sec slower in roll to roll with exact predictable stalling, and the wings usually have more battens..but Hey - when you've lost more pilot friends than you can count on two hands relative to aerodynamic stability questions... your opinion is influenced by pitch stability safety.

    The AC wings are German DULV Certificated...are the REVO wings pitch tested??or the Airborne or any others!
    Only the P & M AFAIK have Pitch Test Certficates!
    Whats your opinion..?
    PS. Static structural testing will test material strengths & sail fabrics, but not inflight stability.
    Smooth - Pitch Stable - Flights.
    But we must consider the aerodynma
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 5 years ago
    Hey Chris, glad you asked, it's not often enough people even know to ask such questions about the safety of their wings in all flight attitudes.

    http://www.northwing.com/lightsport-wing-testing.htm

    FYI: Northwing builds 4 of our 5 purpose built wings for the Revo. The other is La Mouette which is DULV certified. The colaberation between our 2 companies began 5 years ago which is when the first Revo wing was designed and tested, well before the public knew of the frst Revo.

    All of our wings are computer pitch tested and you will see we go beyond 0 degrees all the way into negative AOA in the video above!

    At the unusual attitudes I personally fly at in some cases (always while solo), I can't afford to guess if my wing is 100% safe! I like to think my BRS is just for extra balast. :-)
  • Chris Brandon
    by Chris Brandon 5 years ago
    Hi Larry..thanks for the info. Gr8t to see your wings are tested in this manner.
    I am very impressed with the REVO..but I am hard core Air Creation for some 17 years now.
    Yes the AC wings are tested below zero AOA which is adjusted during test runs by hydraulic rams on the rig arms, also driven backwards at 17klms per hr which loads the outer leading edges..simulation of tumbling to ensure non structural failure if a tumble is ever encountered.
    Hope to get a flight in a REVO at Natfly if there is a machine in attendance.
    You are very Pro-Active..something that I am endevearing to achieve this year with Air Creation.
    Australia is a good market for you & I hope you do well in Oz.
    Cheers
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    To David O, I confess, I've been feeling a bit effeminate in that little Buggy.

    Not really.

    In truth, it's in the Buggy I discovered how much I truly love to fly. But it's very cramped. If nothing else, I have a genuine need for something that lets me fly in less of a “pretzel” configuration. I don’t think comfort is too great a thing to ask. I’d also like very much to have more reasonable space left for my passenger.

    Those are very practical needs.

    Beyond such purely practical matters, what’s wrong with wanting handling that’s a little more crisp, and with a bit less man-handling of the control bar. My Buggy, with an IXess 15, requires significant brute force in many maneuvers? I enjoy power steering in my land vehicles; why not in a vehicle that’s purely for pleasure too?

    What’s wrong with wanting better wind deflection, for a quieter and warmer ride?

    I could go on and on, but the bottom line is when you’ve first delved into an activity on a probing-level budget – then discover you’re going to be wanting to spend a lot of time there – it’s now worth it to invest more significantly to become better equipped. Not that there’s anything wrong with a Buggy. It’s a great little craft. But it’s entirely normal, when you become more serious, to want more serious equipment.
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 5 years ago
    Glade,
    There's nothing wrong at all with those ideas- that's not what I was meaning ;) It was about general concepts that have been coming on for a while and not about any pilot (yourself most especially) or particular trike (big or small). It was about flying rather than flash, and the joy of the simplicity that is the essence of triking.
    David
  • Herman Eldering
    by Herman Eldering 5 years ago
    Great comments folks and very helpful background information. David, I hear your views about simplicity but remind you of the dictum, "he/she who dies with the most toys wins!" What I love about the Revo is the passion of the builders, the commitment to constant innovation, the simplicity of flying it but with lots more if you want to engage the technology. I was disappointed that Airborne who make a solid product, just don't seem to look at improvements of any tangible nature and that why after 2 Airbornes I chose the Revo. I have no exposure or knowledge of Air Creation trikes at all.
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 5 years ago
    Hey Herman, Thanks. Two Questions: 1) You have to die to win? 2) Air Creation / Tanarg Pilots (like me) aren't passionate ? ;) ;)
    Congrats on your passion! Where have you been flying lately?
  • Chris Brandon
    by Chris Brandon 5 years ago
    I agree..Larry Mednick is a gr8T mascot/pilot/designer for the REVO - Larry has a clean passion for this trike...with sound experience offering us clear informative material about his trikes.

    To sell any safe aircraft in our fragile market is a tall order!

    Giles Bru and the team at Air Creation do have a silent approach to marketing with Distributors doing the customer relations tasks. In my experience, much passion is displayed by most manufacturers, its just the difference in how we are presented with the marketing information.

    IMO to be frankly honest - Air Creation are the true innovators - there is little design (copy) technology on the Tanarg, Skypper, BioniX and the NuiviX - trike models that is from any other trikes.

    The AC Patent Certificate for the variable wing geometry (BioniX & NuviX) is reference to real innovation.

    Tangible improvements of trike design stem from competition...Australia has suffered greatly from imported trikes not able to fly under the CASA Regulations/Exemption. It all changed in 2007..but the monopoly on the market had roots well established prior imported trikes being able to fly legally here in OZ.

    So bring on the innovation/competition..lets fly better, safer, more efficient trikes.
  • Herman Eldering
    by Herman Eldering 5 years ago
    David, after a lifetime of very hard work owning an advertising agency, graphic design studio, video production company, chain of Apple computer stores and Chairman of a banking institution I'm very much looking forward to having some "Me Time" instead of having 650 staff demanding my time. That means some long overdue hobbies can be satisfied and I'm enjoying every minute of it. No intention of dying just yet. Regarding passion I was referring to the passion of the manufacturer in creating great products. Never heard a peep out of Airborne or Air Creation just deafening silence.

    My flying base is out of Moruya and I ave been paying with your Enigma screens, very good bar some anomalies like an error in IAS and of course references to gallons when we use litres.
  • Richard LaHood
    by Richard LaHood 5 years ago
    A great man (not sure who) once said, "Buy the best, and you'll never regret it." This is a no brainer my friend- The Revo rocks.
  • Richard LaHood
    by Richard LaHood 5 years ago
    ... I remember who it was now... "The Most Interesting Man in the World."
  • Michael Kocot
    by Michael Kocot 5 years ago
    This whole argument is like Chevy vs Ford. It all depends on what YOU look for in a trike & wing. I've seen both but neglected to fly either. (Don't have the money to buy either) The Revo is like a sports car, top of the line, style and speed. All good when you want to fly a jet plane in a gymnassium. Hats off to Larry and Abid. That trike turned more heads than ever at the local fly-in. Stylish and Sleek. (Oh, yea Abid, I know it can too go "slow". The Air creation is what it is. Great design, large and roomy, plenty of storage, fast enough to get you there...and by no means slow. With the BioniX & NuiviX wings AC is the "Apple" of trike design for function. When will AC come out with a strutted wing? It's just a matter of time I'm sure. If I was flying Xcountry with my gal, alot has to be said about the Tanarg. If I'm shooting down to the beach and back, I'd take the Revo. Then again, I like my feet free, and no sides, so... I'd take a 912 Skypper or maybe DTA!
  • Flying  Frog
    by Flying Frog 5 years ago
    Skypper 912 with Bionix wing for great fun. One of the nicest "small" trikes that I have ever flown.
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    I appreciate the commentary from y'all, but urge a tighter focus. I learned a long time ago to never let judgment from others substitute for my own. I also learned it's facts that count, as opposed to opinions or commentary. Given this, can we concentrate on what are the actual facts you've encountered (if indeed you've had relevant personal experience), in regard to either aircraft, in particular that specifically commends it vis-a-vis the other? I am most interested in facts that go beyond a dry review of specifications (as is easily available online). Some of the above contributions already provide this (such as describing two guys going a 1000 miles and fitting all they needed into Revo, for example), and it's the kind of thing I find most useful. I'll be making a trip to AZ within a couple of weeks for my own direct inspection and flight-test of the Tanarg, as counterpoint for the trip already made to FL on the Revo. I will report on what I encounter.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 5 years ago
    Depends on what you want to do with it. I love to fly low and slow and putting around. My Airborne Edge X with it's Wizard wing is the best bird for me. I use to do cross countries with a Streak wing but that's not what I enjoy as much as flying low and slow.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 5 years ago
    Glade, and your report is not going to be based on your own judgements and opinions and then why would anyone want to substitute "their" judgment for "yours"?. Just curious.
  • Chris Brandon
    by Chris Brandon 5 years ago
    Sure be interested in what you encounter Glade. Have you flown the Revo for any other flights than the original post? 20 minutes..weather conditions unfavourable.. did you fly solo, in command with Larry or as a passenger?
    IMO - to determine a financial decision of such importance would require several flights of a trike under a variety of conditions. IME - the behaviour of wings is greatly influenced by MTOW, Density Altitude, and Engine HP. so be sure to get real airtime over several flights to establish defineded results that go beyond a dry review of specifications...as found on websites...:-)
    So enjoy the journey ..thats the most important lesson for us humans.
    PS. I am confident Jean-Luc TILLOY at AC will give you some good brain food for your thoughts.. in a factory that has manufactured some 8000 wings & 5000 trikes since 1982.
    Have Fun!
    Satis-Fly Your Passion..
  • Chris Brandon
    by Chris Brandon 5 years ago
    Have you sold your Buggy or are you still flying this machine?
    What engine & wing combination have you been flying?
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    Thanks all for the continued input. To Chris, yes, I do plan to sell my Buggy. It has an iXess 15 wing, 582 bluehead engine and BRS. 2002 model with prox 290 hours. I paid 20K for it last spring, and have made some improvements, including new tires. Excellent condition. No electric start and no oil injection.
  • Lee Schmitt
    by Lee Schmitt 5 years ago
    http://youtu.be/nYBu-tzmQLw here is a video comparison of the Tanarg vs Revo i filmed today
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    That's a very awesome comparison. Thank you so much.
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 5 years ago
    Lee thank you, however since you've put that out there, there's some points I'd like to make from my perspective (other's mileage may vary):

    It's not quite a straight "Nose to Nose" comparison-- Things I'd point out:
    1) Comparing 7 yr old Tanarg to last year's Revo. More fair would be '05 Revo (not sure what year Revo started ? 2009 ?). With a '12 Tanarg you're getting a proven design from a company that has & will be around for a long time. All good designs have Service Bulletins. Newer designs by their nature have more things to work out, and their longevity (parts and looks) has not been truly tested.

    2) I've NEVER seen that kind of damage on a Tanarg body- others will concur (Yet the '11 Revo had damage also (As Lee says in the video about his Revo, "Son of a gun!" what the heck is that!)

    3) Storage: This comparison completely missed the fact that a huge portion of the Tanarg's storage shown can be accessed in flight- want a new map, chapstick, drink, energy bar, phone / GPS charger, gloves, camera, barf bag, halon aircraft fire extinguisher, glasses (all above applies to passenger storage in Tanarg also) you name it in flight? then get a Tanarg. (Lee says, "You probably aren't gonna want to get things out in flight anyway."-- I would have to disagree. Flying long distance as we do, it is not only convenient, but potentially life saving!)
    Additionally, a HUGE storage compartment is available under the engine from a convenient door on the Right side and was not shown at all in the video.
    Also see this video of Tanarg Storage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpbfDTPcuOE

    One other thing that is cool about the Tanarg, in regards to storage is the nice area above the dash, where Tanarg pilots can toss sun glasses / gloves quickly, or store many things (such as sectionals) that we read in flight. See this video of reading sectionals in the Tanarg at 100mph!!!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piNTJIACb6E
    (you may think, "But I have a Garmin / Enigma, why would I need to look at a sectional?" Many times Garmin / Enigma may be sufficient- But there are plenty of times that they don't give sufficient information, while the sectional does, and is critically needed- especially on Terminal Area Charts (TAC) for example all the SFRA's / Mini routes / etc, through LAX, etc. On Top to Bottom- we flew through all 4 Class B's on the West Coast)

    And finally, for truly huge comparitive storage on XC trips, there is the custom backseat luggage compartment made by Air Creation as an option (a poor / distant picture of it is here:) http://www.trikepilot.com/groups/profile/374/pictures/11690/2
    I always put my rapid access tie-downs there for quick acces when parking in high winds (rummaging around in hard to reach compartments is dangerous and/or impossible in serious winds), and it will fit my laptop, a spare helmet, and other large items. and since it's removable, it's like luggage to carry off once you park.

    4) Suspension: You can see in the opening shot, that the Tanarg is lower. It is also wider-- Read Stability.
    The Revo has undamped leaf spring. Read "bouncey." The Revo guys love that, other pilots have doubts. Let's just say that no on-road or off-road race vehicle leaves shock absorbers off their suspension springs.
    Personally I trust the Tanarg suspension more, it gives a very soft landing, so this argument about "I don't see it move much" is due to good design-- it CAN move a whole lot more than it often does for exactly this reason.

    5) Any discussion of suspension should include brakes-- I'll let Abid speak here about that "6) Tanarg's brakes I believe are larger than the Revo and are much similar in performance to the Delta Jet in that regard. Revo's are smaller rotors and larger (taller) side wall tires. Tanarg and Delta Jet thus have more effective braking than the Revo."

    6) Regarding heat: Early Revos (and these Revos are still relatively new) had heat / cooling and other issues also. The video shows an '05 Tanarg-- he has made some of the factory modifications, but you can see that he STILL does not have the complete factory suggested upgrades (that ~ 2008 or newer Tanarg already come with- so, it is a bit unfair to compare / complain about the '05 Tanarg vs '11 Revo)

    7) I've had passengers do strange things in a trike: With the open engine inches from the Revo passenger, I wouldn't be as confident there. The Tanarg engine cowl is beautiful (I think), functional and lessens the chance of inflight mishap (also protects from UV damage- eg fuel hoses cracking, other rubber & plastic parts failing, etc)
    People we talk to out here like the look of the Tanarg better- As Lee indicates, if you're from the South, you may disagree.

    8) I like Tanarg's light fairing- heavy airplanes dont work well. I too initially thought being able to step all over the Revo was good, but now appreciate Tanarg's designers didnt overload it. The Revo's step-on bodywork feels like stepping up on top of it rather than sitting down in it like the Tanarg- an effect I feel is much like mounting a fiberglass Fire Engine ride outside a grocery store. The Revo's fiberglass joints (at wheel pants, body, etc) squeak/rub when getting on & as it moves- that bothers me a lot.

    9) People will disagree, but I don't like the positioning of the BRS and switch cluster on the Revo behind the Pilot's Left shoulder (it is potentially better for instruction, but for us Right Handed pilots, I believe it's better to have them right in front of you where you can find them easily with either hand if the trike is doing flips, etc.)

    10) In that same grain, I also like being able to visually confirm the for real amount of fuel in the tank- with the Tanarg & Revo, there is the Enigma electronic gauge, but with the Tanarg, you can also see the sight tube in flight. In the Revo, you can only see the fuel sight tube from outside the trike.

    11) The difference in fuel tanks is HUGE. The Tanarg's is huge at 17 gallons and less susceptible to water condensation. That's around a full hour longer of fuel (a critical safety factor). It also does not have a large unusable fuel portion-- I don't know the exact amount unusable in the Revo, but an SB / Advisory was issued after an accident in Hawaii.

    The video also didn't seem to make it clear enough that new Tanargs come loaded with the Enigma EFIS or dial gauges (I don't know if dial gauges are available on Revo- some people are into dials & hate digital)

    There are other additional aspects of each that can be debated.

    That being said, as Lee, myself and many others point out over and over, these are all great trikes. With the points that Lee brought up, it seemed that it would be fair to respond with some counter points to consider (since that was the apparent point of this blog)- many will disagree with either the points or counter points, and that is the whole greatness of having many trikes big and small to choose from.
    I thought there were some points in Lee's video that I strongly disagreed with, but I don't blame him for it at all and am not angry with him, it was a well done video. I think we'll still be friends after this, and will always be enthusiasts (neither of us are dealers). By the same token, alternative view points and comparison (without personal attacks) should be welcomed here in the spirit of discussion, learning and sharing that TPS is all about.
  • Chris Brandon
    by Chris Brandon 5 years ago
    Great to see trikers speaking with their cameras...Fair comments on both sides..all good to me! Cheers.
  • Flying  Frog
    by Flying Frog 5 years ago
    Would be nice to see the same video with a 2011 Bionix winged carbon fibre Tanarg ES with the Enigma dash and the heated clothing wiring option.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 5 years ago
    Hey Lee,
    Decent video but your Tanarg does have more hours than the Revo. Not that I have not seen what a Revo looks like with 550 hours (Tracy Tomlinson with training etc.). How many hours have you got now on your Revo? Are you headed down again sometime to FL in near future? Beach??
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 5 years ago
    My Tanarg has ~750 hours, almost double the Tanarg above and has none of that damage after heavy use in harsh conditions (it was a commercial operations trike in Hawaii before I got it), and I've had over 40 different (almost all newbie, and some wheel chair bound) passengers in mine. I've seen some minor crazing of the gell coat on some yellow trikes (this is NOT a yellow v red comment- in truth I think the yellow is good looking.) But, it seems pretty clear to me that the damage at the belly was due to someone stepping in and out of it at that spot-- and it was strong enough to support them, but the gell coat took a hit and cracked outward only in that one spot of all places. Likely it was not Lee that did it, but possibly someone else who was introduced to the Revo method of entry and tried to do the same one day in the Tanarg, cracked the belly and didn't tell Lee it happened. Therefore, it would look to Lee like it was just spontaneously failing. I'll photo my trike here if interested.

    There is the new Carbon Fiber Tanarg option. It is very cool looking.
  • tom speirs
    by tom speirs 5 years ago
    I have seen and flown 11EV Tracy Tomlinsons revo and it still looks new .....plus it must have by now 650 plus if I had the mulla I would seriously consider a revo....just saying
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 5 years ago
    And there you have it Glade, some reasons we didn't want to get started on this again.

    But, Jeez, it seems like any discussion of potential issues with the [ ] is like the public talking about the Emperor's New Clothes
  • Flying  Frog
    by Flying Frog 5 years ago
    I thought everything was calm on here till Larry posted, he must be having a bad hair day.
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    There's actually a very bright side to this. It's that we're all involved in something capable of creating so much passion. I mean, as a subject by itself, isn't it great that triking is such an activity? Without passion, after all, how valuable is living? Triking is great because it makes living more valuable.

    On the subject of passion, one of Larry's great virtues (and a factor that attracted me to Revos as a potential purchase in the first place) is he's so passionately driven (it's obvious as you see his work) to make absolutely the best flying machine possible. One may argue whether this or that element of design philosophy is maximally optimum, or not. But Larry’s passion to pursue the best is beyond question – as is, I’d add, the conclusion his judgment in each instance has been, at minimum, very well-considered.

    Take, for example, the question of suspension. As noted by David, Revos and Tanargs pursue different design philosophies. On the face of it, the lack of any direct-dampener in the Revo design might suggest it's like a car with no shock absorbers, which, once hitting a bump, might continue with unwanted oscillations. The Tanarg has a dampener system, so on the basis of this argument would seem superior in such regard. However, trikes are almost totally unique among small fixed-gear aircraft in that some use a Tanarg-type, triangle geometry for their main gear. Most other GA aircraft use a main gear design almost identical to Revos, making it an extraordinarily well-proven design for aircraft purposes. The leaf spring design further has the benefit of less drag and greater ultimate stroke distance (possibly preventing damage and/or injury that would otherwise occur in a very hard landing). Which is ultimately best? Heck if I know?

    My general point, regardless, is though any of us may judge that one is better than the other, do not doubt that: (a) it’s a complex issue; and (b) Larry chose the design he did on the basis of intense consideration, deep knowledge and much experience. Any disagreement on a matter like this is, at best, a difference of opinion.

    Then there’s my other general point. It is, again, isn’t it cool we're in a venue where we can be so passionate about things.
  • Chris Brandon
    by Chris Brandon 5 years ago
    IMO-Both machines offer different concepts in design, styling, performance & specifications.
    I recall when I first seen the REVO advert here in OZ, I thought..wow, cool trike, but I am sure I have seen that trike before!
    Correct me if I am wrong - but the Delta Jet or Apollo trikes look physically similar!

    To design manufacture any trike requires dedication, inspiration and passion. I have been involved heavily in design manufacturing in my career and appreciate all the effort involved to produce quality trikes/wings.

    Ultimately, to design a trike from scratch (drawings to certification to full production) is true passion.

    If possible, fly the trikes you wish to buy several times under a variety of conditions to allow yourself to make an informed decision is my opinion.

    Does the REVO have any warranty on components?
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    Chris, for the life of me I can't understand what you interpreted as a personal attack. There is positively no attack of any kind in anything I've written, personal or otherwise. Why the bickering? I truly do not understand?
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    In regard to similarities to Delta Jet and Apollo, if you go to the Revo site, it's made very explicit those are indeed the heritage. When I was in Florida with Larry, he had one of the two (I don't recall whether it was the Delta Jet or Apollo, but remember it was one of the two) in his hangar, along-side a couple of Revos. There were definite family resemblances, but the Revo was demonstrably several evolutionary generations more advanced.
  • Kael Rowan
    by Kael Rowan 5 years ago
    From the Revo POH: http://www.evolutiontrikes.com/manuals/Revo-POH-FTS-Rev2.pdf

    2.5.1 Fuel Capacity
    Fuel Capacity: 54.5 Liters or 14.4 US Gallons
    Unusuable Fuel Capacity: 4.9 Liters or 1.3 US Gallons

    (OPTIONAL – NO BRS)
    Fuel Capacity: 70 Liters or 18.4 US Gallons
    Unusable Fuel Capacity: 4.9 Liters or 1.3 US Gallons
  • Kael Rowan
    by Kael Rowan 5 years ago
    From the Revo web site: http://www.evolutiontrikes.com/why.htm

    Safety:
    The wing struts have safety back up cables inside as well as the mast having a cable the secures from the keel of the wing to the keel of the trike carriage.
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 5 years ago
    Thank you Kael. Those both look good.
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 5 years ago
    Glade - the leaf spring landing gear has advantages of simplicity, low maintenance, and low cost. Oleopneumatic struts have the advantages of better damping and load absorption during landing. Triangulated gear has the advantage of lower weight. These designs are also used throughout the aircraft industry and must be considered proven.

    Changing the Revo landing gear type from the leaf spring used on the Monsoon would have required a significant structural redesign, something Larry and Abid probably wanted to avoid.

    At the end of the day trikes are used for fun, so you have to go with what makes you happy. Being able to talk to Larry in person to share in his passion sounds exciting, and is definitely something that I haven't had with Air Creation. But at the same time, I don't worry that the Air Creation guys are designing and building their trikes without any passion and just to get a paycheck.
  • Flying  Frog
    by Flying Frog 5 years ago
    Jake you must know the Aircreation factory better than I do! Everyone apart from the receptionist and a couple of the sewing ladies is a trike pilot there. You turn up there without an appointment and someone will spend a few hours showing you around everything and introducing you to everyone. There is a little corner in the hangar that is screened off where they build new designs, you can go in there but cannot take a camera. Everywhere else you can take pictures to your hearts content.
    France is not a place where people do things for big pay checks, they do things because they are passionate about them. You will see normal old cars in the car park, no big expensive ones. Most of the guys who build the trikes have worked there for many years.
    That is why I have a Tanarg - because I can talk to and meet the people who design and build them. I cannot buy a Revo as there are, to my knowledge, none in France or the UK, and I cannot meet anyone who designs and builds them.
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 5 years ago
    You can have fun in the Orlando area (I have, especially at Wallaby.com), but a trip to France- that will really put your wife in the mood!! ;)
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 5 years ago
    Hmm... maybe I miscommunicated. I am sure that the Air Creation people are very passionate about building trikes. I just haven't personally had the opportunity to visit them or talk to them extensively. This is only because they are in France and I am in California. For someone like Glade who lives in the US, Evolution Trikes is much closer. That's a real advantage.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 5 years ago
    which one is the female trike?
  • Henry Trikelife
    by Henry Trikelife 5 years ago
    "My Tanarg, she is very glamourous."
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 5 years ago
    :-) indeed Henry! some great video platform as well.
  • Dave Dodson
    by Dave Dodson 5 years ago
    Just fly the freakin things and choose one. Your heart, head and butt will make that decision for you. I'm sure wings make a huge differience plus you probably want the 912.
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    I returned last night from a quick trip to Tucson, where I met Neil Bungard and his lovely partner Mia. It was a trip designed to "kill two birds with one stone." (1) I got to spend significant time (three hours) flying the Tanarg, and of course I had opportunity to inspect it thoroughly. (2) Neil was able to give me the needed instructor tradeoff and Check Ride endorsement so that I can now take my Practical with Clyde Poser (otherwise my instructor) here in the northwest.

    To review the experience, I want to first say Neil and Mia were great hosts. Thoroughly pleasant and helpful at every stage. Clyde Poser sets an extremely high standard for instructors (in my opinion), and, I think, having been used to him, I could have easily been disappointed with someone else. Neil did not disappoint. I'd recommend him as an instructor to anyone. Flying with him was enjoyable and educational. His rates were great too. And who can complain about Tucson weather (85 degrees, I'm not kidding).

    About the Tanarg:

    As everyone knows, it's a very nice aircraft. I want to provide a thorough point-by-point comparison when time allows, but for the moment will explain one of the large things I am looking for is more nimble and lighter-weight handling. Neil's Tanarg happens to be equipped with precisely the same wing as my Buggy: the iXess 15. It's a good wing, but I want to feel more like I'm driving a sports car as opposed to a bus. The Revo (with Competition wing) positively (even dramatically) delivers. Though I got only 20 minutes in one, the exhilarating quality of "drive" was instantly obvious. The Tanarg with iXess 15 was, by contrast, even heavier in controls than my Buggy (greater weight in the carriage evidently makes even the same wing a greater chore to handle).

    Based on the above, for this particular purpose of mine, the combination of Tanarg + iXess 15 would not be a move up for me (to clarify, it would still be a large move up for the sake of several other purposes, just not for this one). Neil indicates the BioniX would likely feel even heavier in handling, so it would not be a solution either. He says, on the other hand, the NuviX would be much lighter. For such reason, I have concluded that any potential consideration by me of a new Tanarg must be with it in combination with a NuviX. Of course, I'd not make any such forward decision until flying with the combination, and I'm not sure when there will be such an opportunity.

    Wanting a sports-car-like feel is a big enough factor for me that, absent its potential combination with a NuviX wing, I am otherwise (at least pretty much) taking the possibility of a new Tanarg out of consideration (a used one, on the other hand, I'd readily consider for benefit of $avings). If anyone is flying a Tanarg with NuviX, please tell me about your "handling" experience. If it's considerably more sports-car-ish (e.g., like the Revo), there will be reason for me to keep that combination high on my consideration list. If on the other hand any of you have a used Tanarg (and even if with other than NuviX) for sale at a darned good price, I'll consider compromising on my nimble-handling goal (not a compromise I'd exactly welcome, but money talks).
  • Lee Schmitt
    by Lee Schmitt 5 years ago
    Neil is a great instructor and lots of fun to hang out with. like many people on this forum, he is a VERY interesting guy. damn i miss the good old days in Rodeo. i was always impressed how he could quote chapter and verse from the FARs or what ever they are called theses days. ....now i just wish he would respond to my emails!! (Mia? you dont mean Mardela do you?)
    i have not flown the bionix but your assessment is what i have heard about it in the past and your assessment of the ixess 15 is spot on.
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    Lee, thank you for the confirmation on my assessments. Mia is definitely the name I learned. If memory serves correctly, I think they said they'd been together for four or five years. Also, they met while in Rodeo. I'll presume Mardela must be a different gal from the past. Evidently, Neil likes "M" gals. :)
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 5 years ago
    The roll on my Tanarg with a Bionix is definitely much heavier than it was on my instructors Airborne with the Cruze wing. I've also heard several people say that this is how Air Creation builds their wings. So, if you really want light roll response, then the Tanarg may not be for you...
  • Flying  Frog
    by Flying Frog 5 years ago
    I think that the roll on my Bionix is about the same as it was on the Ixess15.
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 5 years ago
    Just to be clear, I think that the Bionix is great. It goes fast and slow with equal ease and handles well. I think it suits the character of the Tanarg, which I see as more along the lines of a Jaguar than a Lotus. Perhaps not as responsive, but you can go somewhere interesting with two people in style and comfort while feeling in touch with the world. I happen to think this is pretty awesome, but can certainly understand why someone (Glade) might want something different.
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    I am indeed quite enthralled with the idea of light and nimble handling. Nevertheless, I am curious what your hands-off, straight-and-level speed range is with the BioniX?
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 5 years ago
    I haven't done a formal analysis, but my sense is mid-40s to mid-70s hands off. I'll experiment this weekend and let you know.
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 5 years ago
    Air Creation puts it this way: Regarding the handling on BioniX 15 or iXess 15 , we are talking about 15 sqm wing .. The purpose of this type of wing is the ability to achieve a minimum speed fully loaded ( which for an Ultralight in Europe is a MTOW 472 Kg for BioniX and 450 for iXess ), we are also looking for an excellent stability (and comfort) in strong conditions.
    You can’t compare with small wings (though we continue to produce some 11 , 12 & 13 sqm and have since 1987 …!! ) we know the advantages ( handling, vivacity, precision ..) and disadvantages ( minimum speed, take off distance when maximally loaded or in altitude or with high temperatures, Perhaps most important is that in a small wing it is not easy to land off the beaten track- in a field for example - in case of engine failure .. in particular at MTOW !!)

    The BioniX is very safe, comfortable and easy for long cruise, and covers a VERY wide range of speeds- both fast AND slow. If you had to compare with car, the BioniX + Tanarg 912 is like a Mercedes Class M or BMW X5.
    If you want speed and sport, choose different model or wing, we recommend our 13 meter wing.

    Another very important point, when you compare handling, you should do so at same weight and in particular at the same speed. On any wing (planes included), effort and liveliness in roll will improve with speed. Simply flying faster makes a wing seem more lively.
    In the end, not all pilots have the same plan or desires .. for this raison we propose also the NuviX ..Which is basically a different version of BioniX ..much lighter ( in roll and in price ) the main difference will be the Maximum Speed which is better on the BioniX. The Cruise speed on the NuviX is from 80 to 120 Km/h with a maximum at 140. - And of course we’ll propose other new and different models in the near future!
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 5 years ago
    Wow! Not Only in writing, but from the manufacturer. That in a nutshell is exactly my thoughts on wings and ACs BionX.

    I just coldn't agree more with everything said. I was just telling Chris Brandon the other day my similar thoughts... Im glad this is out there for people to see so they can make an educated decision regarding wing choice.

    If I bought a Tanarg tomorrow, I would personally have to have the Iexcess 13 as it is more of a "sports Car".
  • Mike-in- Thailand
    by Mike-in- Thailand 5 years ago
    I swapped my iXess 13 for the BioniX about a year ago. Whilst the iXess 13 is slightly more "flicky", it's not that much of a difference. Also, the iXess 13 is flat-out in "hands-off" cruise at about 73 mph (IAS) whilst the BioniX can do over 90 mph "hands-off". My conclusion: the BioniX is definately a more sporty wing than the iXess 13.
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    Thanks again for all your comments.

    I felt a little uncertain with Jake reporting a Tanarg/BioniX hands-off speed range from the 40s to the 70s, while Mike reports hands-off speeds into the 90s. Could be a difference in tuning, or perhaps it's just that perceptions vary a bit in the absence of direct/formal testing.

    Regardless, the situation triggered an effort by me to carefully glean such pertinent comparison figures as I could from available online sources, consisting of both promo materials and POHs from each manufacturer. Based on this, I made a little spreadsheet comparison, which I think is quite interesting. Here is a reference:

    http://www.trikepilot.com/members/profile/3231/pictures/15399/2

    While I've done my best to try to pull the figures accurately, any inaccuracies are solely my responsibility.

    BTW, I almost got my Practical done on Thursday. Sadly, there was a snafu in the paperwork, so I'm not there yet. Dang!
  • Chris Brandon
    by Chris Brandon 5 years ago
    Cool..the wings appear sorted with clear comparisons, so what is the fuel burn rates with the 912 in the Tanarg & Revo?
    Interested to see what you all get with economy in mind. My Tanarg 912 IXess 15 has consisitently flown 9.7 ltrs per hour cruising at 125 klm with circuit work.
    The only difference is when we muster cattle & camels on the station. Much higher rpm & varying speeds are required. At times we are through the trees at 145 klms/hr, then slow up - just on stall hold altitude at say..25 feet at 38 klms/hr just above the stock. This has proven to return fuel rates on 12.5 ltrs per hour over a period of some 120 hrs.
    Obviously, the faster we go the higher the revs & fuel rates. At 90 mph, what is the rpm & fuel burn on the Revo?? Curious..
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    I got the Tanarg/Bionix range and fuel-burn rates from the following:

    http://www.aircreation.fr/Portals/3/PropertyAgent/610/Files/124/CTP%20BioniX_TANARG_en.pdf

    I was able to deduce (based on stated fuel-burn rate and tank capacity of 17.7 gallons) , AC had to be figuring for use of every last drop of gasoline, to figure their stated range.

    I got the Revo/Sport fuel burn rate from Pg. 70 of their POH:

    http://www.evolutiontrikes.com/manuals/Revo-POH-FTS-Rev2.pdf

    The Revo POH reports that 1.4 gallons from their 14.4 gallon tank is unusable, so I figured 13 gallons as available for my range calculation comparisons on that craft. Darn! I just double-checked, and found my first goof. The unusable portion of fuel is reported on Pg. 27 of the Revo POH as 1.3 gallons -- not 1.4 as I used. This means I under-reported the Revo range by a small amount. I'll correct and re-post.

    I possibly should note explicitly that, since no one would deliberately fly to the last drop of useable fuel, practical ranges (as applicable at the sampled speeds) are less than in my chart. They are likewise less than in AC's own chart.

    The Revo does offer a larger tank without the BRS option, which would produce X-country ranges larger than Tanarg's. I am also told by Larry that a larger w/BRS tank option will be offered in the future. Regardless, even the smaller range seems sufficient to me. Another factor in regard to tanks is, if one were to have a nasty accident, I suspect there would be far less chance of a tank eruption and resulting injurious (or fatal) fire, based on the Revo design. Its tank is rugged aluminum, and is very well protected, wholly-enclosed within the larger structure. The Tanarg's, of course, is plastic, and quite fully exposed. More protected gasoline (even if in a smaller tank) feels like a pretty good idea to me.

    In regard to economy/slower-flight comparisons on the wings, I'll go back and see if I can add those.
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    Okay, I added a section showing fuel consumption, mileage, ranges, etc., at a slower pairing of speeds. I also improved organization, and fixed my prior error. Here's the current result:

    http://www.trikepilot.com/members/profile/3231/pictures/15400/2
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 5 years ago
    First of all I don't have a dog in this debate since I own an Airborne and absolutely love it. But my two cents would be that the differences that you have discussed here between the two trikes are so small and insignificant that if I was making a a decision between the two it would be based one how much "more" would I want to spend to get that "marginal" superiority (for one trike or the other).

    The other thing is about the fuel tank, if you were in an accident so severe where the fuel tank erupted, that would be the least of your worries because more than likely you will not survive that accident or be extremely seriously injured.

    Anyways good luck finding the machine of your dreams. :)
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    My concern may be somewhat heightened on the fire issue because, when I was receiving my very first training, a phone call came into my instructor with news that a colleague (only a few towns away) had just been in a flying accident with his wife on board. The collision had caused little direct injury, but gas quickly spread and ignited, causing serious burns to both. I don't recall what kind of craft it was, but I think I was told it was a three-axis ultralight (thinking on it further just now, I recall also hearing the aircraft was totally consumed in the fire, and if pilot and wife had not managed to escape they'd have burned within it). It may be that by their nature trikes are less prone to fire in an otherwise survivable accident, but I think regardless I'll score it as a probable plus where it appears one craft's fuel system is likely more eruption-proof than another.

    I think the differences between Tanarg and Revo are rather great.

    Looking at carriages alone, the Tanarg is a lot longer, allowing for much more separation between pilot and passenger. I appreciate not feeling as though I am sitting in my passenger's crotch (well, if it was pretty gal, that might be fine, but where it's my burly male instructor, not so much). This “people-space” factor is a definite and significant plus for the Tanarg. It also has much better structure for its storage (all those various zippered sections, as compared to one big and unsectioned area in the Revo (when I began this blog I incorrectly suggested the Tanarg might have more storage; if anything I think the volume might be less, but it is nonetheless far better structured). I think I like the Tanarg's full-size foot pedals better than the Revo's abbreviated ones (though the latter are much prettier). I like the Tanarg's shoulder belt attachment better too.

    On the other hand, the whole point of my flying is pleasure. Based at least on the wing combinations I have tested, the Revo is much, much, much more pleasurable to fly. It responds immediately, precisely, and with fingertip effort. It's really wonderful. It's beautiful. It FEELS sensational.

    Sensation in the Revo is enhanced for other reasons. The wind protection is dramatically better. There is a related huge plus: cabin heat (very significant here in the Northwest)! You can even steer in the air with your feet on the wheel. I'm not kidding. Larry showed me and I couldn't believe it. Just have the plane flying straight and level. Take your hands off the bar. Move the front wheel left or right. The deflection of air moving across the bottom of the wheel causes the craft to turn and bank. Really. It was awesome. Another awesome maneuver: you could place the plane in a turn and simply push out on the bar (straight out), and the plane would automatically level itself. I’m sure it wouldn’t work to recover from a steep turn, but from a shallow turn, it was just great.

    Then there's the factor of speed. One of the things I want to do when I'm flying is get some place for the pleasure of seeing or being there. The Revo is engineered to fly a faster range of speeds and in greater comfort while so doing. I like faster. It's a significant element. The Tanarg may be capable of going as fast, but based on how it’s engineered the tendency in it will be to fly significantly slower. It's much more than a tiny difference.

    Two more factors concern quality and beauty, both elements that for me are closely tied to pleasure. I simply get more pleasure when I feel that the equipment I am working with enjoys these qualities in abundance. In such regard, I think it beyond question that Revos are more Mercedes Benz or Audi-ish in their construction materials and methods, while ACs are a bit more Chevrolet-ish. All the pieces you look at in the Revo just scream quality ("spare no expense to make it the best). Not so much the Tanarg. Take just the finish: true and deep-luster automotive paint versus gel coat. It's a huge difference. There's all the machined aluminum. There’s the larger-than-standard-size hardware. It goes on and on.

    Beauty overall, of course, is very much in the eye of the beholder, and I absolutely did think Tanargs looked rather sexy. But for me it's kind of like when you had your eye on this rather nice looking gal. You thought she was really hot until you saw one that was a lot hotter. Yep, by my eye the Revo shouts out a much more intense sexiness.

    Back to the more practical, there's the matter of the frames. I'm not a metallurgist or engineer, but I think in general Chomolly tubing is much more fatigue and crack-resistant than is stainless. Stainless has definite issues with stress fracturing and crevice corrosion. Again, I'm not an expert, but I think for the purpose Chomolly is far superior.

    And of course there's glide ratio. I think it's a pretty big matter. Say I'm at 2000’ AGL and have an engine out. In the Tanarg I can glide 3.4 miles, allowing 21.4 sq miles of potential landing places. Same situation in the Revo gives me a 4 mile glide radius, and 25 sq miles of potential landing places. I like the benefit. I also like significantly greater fuel economy for when the engine IS running.

    I am sorry to have rambled, Rizwan. I guess I felt so surprised, by the notion these two aircraft are little different, that it sort of set me off -- to expound on differences I've seen. I guess the exercise also wakes me to the fact I'm evidently leaning in the Revo direction. Perhaps I already was before, but I had not quite cataloged considerations as I did just now.
  • Flying  Frog
    by Flying Frog 5 years ago
    To answer Chris, I found that I went from 9.5 litres per hour to just over 8 when I changed to the Bionix from the Ixess15 (that is with the 912S). I do fly faster than I used to so the corset obviously reduces drag when wound to fast. My hands off fast speed is a little less than Mike's, but he may have his tips turned down compared to me.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 5 years ago
    Different strokes for different folks, I myself lean towards extremely rugged trikes with big tundra tires, something that I can land in a farmer's field or off road. I think my next bird will probably be an Airborne Outback with Cruze wing and big Tundra tires....of course that is in the distant future. Maybe Abid and Larry will come up with "Super Cub" of trikes someday. One other trike that I personally found to be a very rugged yet sexy at the same time was an Aerotrike Cobra. My friend flies that one and he lands in the canyons, dirt tracks and farm fields all the time with that trike back in Twin Falls, ID. The more choices the better I guess.
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    The Cobra indeed looks like a virtuous aircraft (I checked it on AeroTrike's site). I love the look of any naked trike with big tundras. If I lived in the right area, it would be a fun kind of flying. Here our issue is not so much rough landing areas as it is few of them. Even tundras do a poor job in the tops of fir trees and/or in water.
  • Mike-in- Thailand
    by Mike-in- Thailand 5 years ago
    Hi Frog - my tips aren't turned down and I get >90 IAS which is about 93 TAS (I guess) since I fly in high humidity and about 31 deg C. But, like I said, I moved my corset knot up-the-line such that when it's wound fully tight, the pulleys are almost touching each other. I'm very happy with this wing:) Also remember, my Tanarg is the ES model and so the motor peaks at 5,000 ish - I'm sure I'm losing a tad horsepower compared to yours.
  • Flying  Frog
    by Flying Frog 5 years ago
    Glade if you are worried about fire then why not just sit at home and not fly. To have a fire in a trike you would have to crash it and the chances are that you may damage yourself in that crash.
    When it comes to frames, I think that Aircreation know what they are doing as they have been building trikes for 30 years now. There are many still flying from the 1980s around here and they are not falling apart because of the material used.
    If I were you I would just go and buy a Revo as it is obvious that is what you want.
  • Robert Morrison
    by Robert Morrison 5 years ago
    Something that has not been mentioned, many positive points on both sides, however......Buy in America!....Buy a Revo! In the long-run having to either get parts, or technical advise (through phone calls or travel) will make the experience more enjoyable and less costly. Also, the web-site....very user-friendly with regards to aircraft bullentins, manuals, information, as well as, so many events in which Larry (Evolution Company) are there for one-on-one conversations concerning your aircraft. If I could afford a Revo, I would own a Revo.
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    Frog, your comment is so negative. I am not "worried." On the contrary, it's simply sensible (particularly when making a decision so large) to consider all relevant factors. Reduced risk -- from any of several harms -- is a very significant factor. What person would not sensibly want less risk, as opposed to more? What person would not ultimately want a craft that's more safe (does more to attenuate risk), as opposed to less? Even a soldier going into battle does all he can to minimize his risk.

    This relates to frame material as well. No one said stainless frames are failing at epidemic rates. But it remains sensible, regardless, to prefer materials where failure risk is less. In such regard, you may correct if I'm wrong, but my understanding is some Tanargs have indeed had frame-cracking problems.

    Robert, I appreciate your comment. To be candid, I am not personally swayed to "Buy in America" on the basis of mere patriotism. I feel my American compatriots should earn my business by offering a better product or value, and should not expect me to accept less, simply because we are countrymen. On the other hand (and as you indeed explain), dealing domestically (and with persons speaking the same language) has many practical advantages. Those are indeed important considerations. If I spoke French and lived in France, such factors would weigh toward going with a Tanarg. For me in the US, they are indeed another factor in favor of Revos.
  • Joe Swift
    by Joe Swift 5 years ago
    Hi Glade,

    I have been observing this thread with interest for awhile now and like another poster said 'I have no dog' that I am fawning on here. But you made a point that I think needs some clarification. You said in your last post that you understand that there has been frame-cracking in Tanargs that I would like you to elaborate on. Is there any documentation supporting your understanding or is this just hear-say? If this is true than AC needs to fix this and they need to fix this ASAP. If it isn't true than this needs to laid to rest right here.

    Anyway Glade, I wish you the best of luck with which ever one of these two fine airplanes that you choose to purchase down the line.

    Blue Skies,
    Joe
  • Doug Boyle
    by Doug Boyle 5 years ago
    Hi Joe, I keep an eye on my Tanarg for weld-cracking on the nose fork-to-frame attach point and the weld-cracking on the motor mount-to-frame attach point per AC's AD. I don't expect it to show up since the isolated occasion appeared on a ski-equipped Tanarg, but it is better to monitor than not. I also keep an eye on the 912's crankcase for cracking per Rotax's AD. I'm at 360 hours and all is well so far.

    Hi Glade,

    Sometimes when Larry answers my many aerodynamic questions it all sounds Greek to my limited comprehension :) Great post with good participation. I always enjoy the many different viewpoints.
  • Joe Swift
    by Joe Swift 5 years ago
    Thanks for this clarification Doug. So there was an isolated incident involved here and that is important to know. AC is a very professionally run company and they did the right thing alerting you and the other Tanarg owners to monitor this possibility. That must have been one hard landing that old boy made...and that happens as we all know. BTW what 912 do you have fitted to your Tanarg...the 80 hp or the 100Hp?
  • Henry Trikelife
    by Henry Trikelife 5 years ago
    Hi Glade, I have been reading every post in this article. I also found some very interesting points.
    I'd like to clarify one of your statements about the gliding ratio on Tanarg and Revo. Based on your calculation, Tanarg has G/L of 8.976 and Revo has G/L 10.56. Which wing are you referring to ? My understanding is that wing G/L is mainly comes from wing size (lift) and drag which wing (and trike) makes. Revo offers relatively smaller wings than iXess15 or BioniX (less lift), but they have no king post (so probably less drag, but I'm not sure a strut wing really has advantage on drag over a wing with king post.).
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 5 years ago
    Glade, based on your interest in frame cracking you may want to read more about aircraft design. The fatigue properties of metals are well known and easily accounted for in a design - you look in a book, read a number off for fatigue strength, and use that in your calculations. If the component is made of aluminum it need to be a certain size, if it's made of chromoly it has to be a different size, and if it's made of stainless it has to be a still different size. But fatigue cracks don't appear in "stainless steel", they appear in an aircraft of a particular design, and the exact loads seen in a design are usually not well understood. When building "real" airplanes, companies do extensive test flights of an airplane with strain gauges all over it to measure the loads to make sure their design works as expected, then use the results to update their computer models. But they still build an airplane, attach it to a bunch of hydraulic jacks, and push and pull on the thing until it breaks. This always finds problems that they didn't know about and results in different parts of the structure being strengthened. On top of that, they do detailed inspections of the aircraft in the fleet with the most flight hours or cycles, and that always finds problems they didn't know about, and leads to ADs being issued for inspections or repairs.

    Here in the trike world there isn't the money for those kinds of things, so structures are built with a decent factor of safety and subtle design problems get discovered in the field, and fixed in subsequent aircraft on the line. So until a trike has seen a lot of service, it's very hard to know about what subtle problems may be waiting to discover.

    Of course neither the Revo nor the Tanarg are falling out of the sky due to mechanical failures, so this is like arguing about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. When are you getting your Revo? And when are we going to have a fly-in in southern Oregon so we can talk trikes in person?
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    Hi Henry:

    My textual calculations were based on glide slopes of 9 for the Tanarg and 10.5 for the Revo (your calculations reversing back to those bases encapsulate some implicit round-off error). The figures of 9 and 10.5 came from documentation available from the respective companies online. Regarding the wing combinations involved, I was carelessly assuming an implicit reference to the comparison chart (pulling those glide slope and many other figures) I earlier prepared:

    http://www.trikepilot.com/members/profile/3231/pictures/15400/2

    As indicated on the chart, comparisons are based on the Tanarg with BioniX and Revo with Sport wing. The BioniX is a 15 meter wing. The Sport is 12.5 meters. As also chart-indicated, my comparisons are all based on the respective aircraft in full-load condition.

    Overall, I think the Revo has considerably less drag than a Tanarg, especially at higher speeds. As you likely know, drag squares with speed (e.g., it is four times more at 80 than at 40). All those exposed cables on the Tanarg, triangular geometry for suspension, etc., add their own part to the drag equation. It is not, in other words, just in regard to an exposed king post (and with all its attached cables) where a Revo finds less drag.
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 5 years ago
    When even Henry sees the need to question things, you know something's wrong. I think there was too much to correct it all, and have given up. This is a wedge article for our sport (between the big, the little, the rich, the thrifty, etc, etc (I bought mine used by the way, and with sweat equity I designed and built things to customize and upgrade mine, and extensively reprogram even the Enigma I installed to how I personally like it))-- I don't think the article is helping, but do think it's telling that the thanks given for contributions are to one side only. All the money in the world can't buy "the best" trike. It doesn't exist. A slow light trike, good at STOL and a competent pilot is the best defense against crashes that are going to break things (so, to take that to an extreme a light two stroke could be BEST in that regard), but more important is the pilot and good decision making, not the trike-- the most expensive ones crash, and the heavy ones we all know F=MxA, so the bigger and faster crash harder. In the end analysis, it seems your decision was made up long before, and only you can decide for you anyway. Instead of pursuing this wedge discussion further, just plunk your money down on the Revo and stop the madness, they would appreciate the support in this critical time.
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    Hello Jake. I'm not actually very concerned about frame cracking. Robustness of material is just another comparison factor. There are comparisons where one trike wins, and ones where the other does. I am ALL FOR getting together in southern Oregon. Sometime this summer? As for when I get a Revo, I'm still working on that. The money is ready, but I tend to move slowly on these things. It takes a while to convince myself to spend so large a sum, and I need to feel I've got a rather good deal, too.
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    David, I don't understand the hostility. Can't we all just get along?
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 5 years ago
    There is no hostility, but if you read most of the posts closely you'll see the tension this thread is creating-- I'm for less tension, more flying, more friends.
    (this article has probably achieved all the goals it can, anything else is just a wedge for all trikers. In fact the whole premise of "this VERSUS that" and BEST or not-best, is a set up for tension)
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    To David: Close reading is not required. Your first post here questioned whether I am confident in my masculinity. I chose to interpret it positively, and responded cheerily. Now you accuse me of insincerity. I ask you to please refrain from any further posting here (in my blog). Please.

    To everyone: The subject is Revo v. Tanarg (you can check, it's the actual title). If your proposed post does not specifically concern one or more aspects of one versus the other (anything about a particular something that in your view commends it over the other), I beg you to not put it here. Please (if you can resist it) do not even comment on this particular post. It detracts, and is not the subject.
  • Doug Boyle
    by Doug Boyle 5 years ago
    Hi Joe, I've got the 2006 Tanarg model with the 80hp (87 octane fuel :)), iXess 15m wing. I love it! AND the Revo my business partner owns too! I'd be remiss to leave my amphib Seawing out: I love it also (42mph cruise) and my other buddy's 912 Krucker (I fly the hell out of it!) So many trikes; too little time to fly. I love my friends....

    I've got two pairs of snow skies: one set for Colorado skiing and one for North Carolina skiing. Home state skiing can be rocky at times. If a snow equipped trike hit some rocks like I've encountered on skis, there would be "a whole lot of cracking going on." Still, I'd love to try it!
  • Henry Trikelife
    by Henry Trikelife 5 years ago
    Hi Glade, thank you for your clarification. I think I might try some plastic covers on the main mast of my trike. ;)
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 5 years ago
    Hey Guys, regarding wing size, glide ratio and efficiency, keep in mind size is not all that matters. To use an extreme example, take the Cygnet with the 19 meter wing which has one of the shortest glides Vs. the QuikR 11 meter which has one of the longest glides, in fact the QuikR exceeds both the Reflex Sport 12 and the BioniX. so how is it that one of the very smallest wings out glides almost every wing larger than it?

    Keep in mind normally in other aircraft, the glide will not suffer from added weight contrary to popular belief. Having said that because higher weight in a flex wing causes higher washout, trikes most definitely suffer in glide at higher weight. But assume we asre talking both aircraft are 1000 pounds...

    The obvious response is the Cygnet has a high drag carriage with floats, and the wing is a single surface. But even if you put the 19 meter on the Quik carriage it would still not glide like the 11 QuikR (without thermals) and even if you put the Reflex Sport on the Quik carriage you still could not match the glide of the QuikR 11 meter wing. So what exactly makes a the QuikR 11 meter wing glide so well?

    1) Super stiff leading edges that to not deforn during high load and provide high spanwise sail tention
    2) a super tight sail with extremely low twist at around 8 degrees which makes more of the wing lift.
    3) the 1720 University of IL. most efficient stable airfoil is simply more effective in creating lift and also stalls a higher AOA
    4) high aspect ratio increase the ratio of wing tip to area. the wingtip is where the air is spilled and wasted.
    5) topless design eliminates distuption of the delicate low pressure system above the airfoil.
    6) winglets help stop the spill of air at the wing tip
    7) stiffer undersurface battens control the u S shaped bottom and create a more efficient flat bottom
    8) eliptical leading edge (bowed) this type of wing is proven to be the most efficient. the bow in the LE give the wing this shape.
    9) patented inflating leading edge allows the LE to keep it's form which increases the efficiency of the wing.
    10) careful ratio of upper to under surface. The undesurface act's like flaps on a fixed wing to a degree.

    Now some of these things, infact most of them would make for a truck of a wing, but when you do all of this with a tiny wing, it becomes infinitely more managable.

    So without going into detail on the 10 points, unless anyone would like me to elaborate, Size is not the only key ingredient in a wing to get a better glide. And lastly the carriage Does make a difference.

    Hope that helps,
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    But my wife's been telling me size DOES matter. :(
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 5 years ago
    BTW 2,3,7,&9 are NOT incorperated in the Sport 12 wing. Why??? Compromise except for #9 thats something I would like, but its patented. A/C went and used Polycarbonate in their LE of the BioniX to stiffen it up for the same pupose. Aeros offers Carbon fiber inserts as an option. a health leading edge is very important, especially at high speed.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 5 years ago
    Because the BioniX converts to a low twist wing for high speed, I will bet if you cranked in the corsett and pushed out to best glide you could expect as much as a 20% increase in glide. That is just my guess. Henry, you look like a strong man, it would be fun for you to measure your minimum sink trimmed at say 45 MPH and then trim for 90 and push out 45 and measure the minimum sink again. This would be an excellent example of the effects of #2. ANd then you would exceed the published numbers and beat the Sport in glide is my bet. And all will be happy in the forrest again ;-)
  • Henry Trikelife
    by Henry Trikelife 5 years ago
    Wow, Larry, thank you. Gliding ratio is much more complicated subject than I thought. I should try that experiment soon.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 5 years ago
    Glade, I can assure you that David's posts here are not mean spirited. He is passionate about trikes and has educated opinions about triking and hang gliding.

    Larry, so the jist of your article suggest that a cleaner wing has better glide? Am I getting it right? Does the glide ratio have anything to do with the speed of the wing too because Airborne's 80 knot Streak wing has a glide ration of 11:1 vs the slower Wizard wing with a glide ratio of 10:1.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 5 years ago
    Hey Riz, the slower the wing's best glide, the less the drag of the trike will hurt you. So actually faster generally hurts trikes.
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    Well, I did it!

    I placed my order for a new Revo.

    Indeed, I just wired my 50% deposit (don't ask me how much; it was too painful).

    Am I excited?

    To be candid, I've never spent so much (indeed, it's not even close) on anything that's not somewhat more fundamental, like housing or basic transportation. For the moment, sober reflection outweighs any excitement in getting the new craft.

    But why have I worked so hard to develop a good income (such as to enable this) if not to enjoy the results?

    I'm essentially figuring this is my "mid-life crisis" shiny red sports car. Indeed, the cost is about the same as a mid-range new Corvette. I feel certain my metallic-orange Revo will be a lot more fun.

    BTW, did I mention it will have the new 912iS!

    That's right. Read it and weep. 912iS. Fuel injection. Electronic engine management. 21 percent improved performance per gallon of fuel. No carbs. No carb adjustment. No carb icing. I'll be one of the few, the proud, the -- "hey,-what-happened-to-my-wallet-to-get-me-here" -- trike guys with a truly and fully-modern, 21st century, Rotax engine.

    It's uncertain when Evolution will take delivery of their first 912iS (which goes in my trike), and, depending on when, delivery of my Revo may be delayed from normal delivery times. It's being built in Michigan. I plan to take delivery there, and fly it home to Washington state. Optimistically, I may have it in time for the Arlington Air Show in July.

    BTW, I am now officially doing my part to help stimulate the economy. :)
  • Jan Ferreira
    by Jan Ferreira 5 years ago
    Congratulations Glade, I am eating my heart out..:>) I see them Revo's fly every week and dreaming of winning the lottery and buy one. I am so nice ( sucking up) to Larry but he still doesn't want to trade my Delta Jet for his Revo, I just don't get it....:>)
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 5 years ago
    Congratulations
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 5 years ago
    Congrats Glade. The 912iS will probably make you miss Arlington (nothing to do with Evolution but simply a Rotax matter). It will probably be worth it however over the long term if you can do initial outlay of extra $6500 for the engine. There is a cool factor there that is hard to put a price on.

    Ref: Glide and trike bodies

    The slower the L/Dmax V, the less drag on the fuselage matters. The cleanliness of the carriage becomes a lot more important as you go faster
  • Lee Schmitt
    by Lee Schmitt 5 years ago
    awesome Glade! enjoy the fruits of your labor before Obama redistributes your hard earned income to those 99% without a REVO!
  • Mike-in- Thailand
    by Mike-in- Thailand 5 years ago
    Very very nice Glade - you're gonna have a lot of fun in that:)
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    Thanks all.

    I got some good news from Larry this morning. My order was placed with uncertainty on how we'd end up in terms of EFIS/EMS. Evidently, the 912iS is not compatible with just any such system, and it was hard in this early-iS stage to determine whether MGL's Enigma (standard upgrade in the Revo) would be updated for the purpose, or if we'd need to switch to a different brand unit. I was a little less than enthusiastic about the Enigma regardless, because of its small display, bubble-pad controls and low resolution.

    The good news this morning is that MGL has a brand new generation of EFIS units that will be coming out just in time. Here's a link:

    http://www.mglavionics.co.za/iEFIS.htm

    As you can see, they are calling this generation the "iEFIS" (fits nicely with "912iS," don't you think?), and it's fully modern. Larger and higher-res displays, for one thing. Even more dramatic (and modern) is the fact they are touch-sensitive (with gloves, too). And they are wirelessly networkable with other devices, such as iPads. I'm loving it. I asked Larry if we should call this new Revo the "iRevo."
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 5 years ago
    First off, I would like to thank Glade for the order and congratulate him on being, who I believe, will possibly be the first 912 IS trike owner WORLD Wide.

    A BIG CONGRATULATIONS to Denny Reed at www.trikeschool.com for putting the order together. Denny will go down in my book as being the very first dealer to sell the first fuel injected Rotax trike continuing an EVOLUTION of advancements in our sport. Denny in fact sells Air Creation products as well, and actually sold Glade his first trike. I'm glad to see an AC dealer give the customer what he wanted in this particular case, and not let brand stand in the way of matching the customer's desires to the strong points of a particular model.

    I will keep TPS updated on the progress of the new IS install and post the real world numbers of this new power plant once testing is complete.
  • Michael Kocot
    by Michael Kocot 5 years ago
    Glade - Congrats are in order! I'm sure when you get your flying machine it will be like your childhood dreams have come true. Fly safe brother.
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 5 years ago
    I am going to come back here later digging further down this re-iteration of a debate
    David O...I haven´t laughed in a year & half like you made laugh tonight
    thanks a lot buddy
    simply geniously HILARIOUS
  • Lee Schmitt
    by Lee Schmitt 5 years ago
    Glade, another reason you will be glad that you chose the American made Revo over the French Tanarg is service. Last Wednesday I contacted the guys in Z-hills and ordered a part. It arrived 2 days later as promised. This week I also emailed Aircreation about buying a Bionix wing. I still haven't received a reply. Maybe it's the language barrier or that my email takes longer to get over the Atlantic ;) Oh and before anyone says contact Aircreation USA, let me say that I love Neil, but i recently sent him 4 emails over a 2 month period and never got a reply.
  • Robert Morrison
    by Robert Morrison 5 years ago
    Lee, funny you should mentioned that....somewhere about the 60th comment on this subject I mentioned that very fact of buying the REVO because of it's availability of being serviced in America, etc..etc.......however, no one really seem to care to comment on the subject. I served in the Marine Corps over 20 years and believe in "Manufactured and Buy in the USA".
  • Ken Nussear
    by Ken Nussear 5 years ago
    So I'm confused Robert, don't you fly an Airborne? Seems like for the price you could have bought American also, Northwing!
  • Flying  Frog
    by Flying Frog 5 years ago
    Lee, I don't know, but would think that AC has passed your email to your US dealer. That would be the sensible thing for them to do, but if he is not answering your emails what can you do?
  • Glade Montgomery
    by Glade Montgomery 5 years ago
    Thanks Lee. It's great to have added assurance I made an optimum decision. I've been feeling that way strongly, for other reasons, as well. Larry has been fantastic to work with, as has the dealer through whom I ordered, Denny Reed of BackCountry Aerosports. The biggest problem right now is anxiousness in waiting for the build to complete. ETA on delivery is still a bit up in the air, given the choice of 912iS. I've been reading all I can find about the engine, however, and I think it will be awesome.

    Robert, I did comment on your "Buy in the USA" theme. I do appreciate the practical advantages. In a situation like this, they are large, important, and I'm enjoying them already. I also added a philosophical counterpoint, however (on which I'll presently enlarge). I think there have been a few times (think 1970s and the automotive industry) where a domestic manufacturer, with an inferior offering, urged that native consumers should buy their product on the basis of mere patriotism, and for that reason alone should forego superior offerings from foreigners. In general, I object to this line of argument. I think our fellow countrymen should earn our purchases by the quality of their offerings, and not merely because they are countrymen.

    In the present case (and most happily), I believe Evolution Aircraft has most clearly done precisely this.
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