Hawaii Quik Fatality

Published by: Magdi Shalash on 22nd May 2011 | View all blogs by Magdi Shalash
Steve Sprague a fellow Brother triker,LSRM & an FAA Safety inspector for over 20 years succumbed to fatal crash on a Quik with a 280lbs passenger from California ,in KAUAI announced on friday NTSB Jim struhsaker 
-Eye witness who knows Steve ,who heard 2 subsequent pops before the aircraft hits the Ocean water has more to say on this newspaper link
http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/d0a1008b80c04eef9e701fecb42e332f/HI--Aircraft-Crash/ 
Can we stay tuned to this & keep our P&M friends posted if unaware

Comments

100 Comments

  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    280 pounds ??? That seems like a lot for a trike whose gross weight is 409 Kg (900 pounds) and it had a BRS softback installed as well. Probably empty weight of 465 to 470 pounds. If lets say the empty weight with BRS was 460 pounds even, adding 190 for Steve (my guess, I met him once here at Z-Hills when he purchased a very very used trike from Gary when he first started trike flight), 280 pounds of the passenger without any fuel even gives 930 pounds. That's already over the MTOW and I am sure he had at least half a tank of gas or about 60 pounds. So he was probably 90 to 100 pounds easily over MTOW. Ouch.
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    Craig Valentine was concerned with the tank full with me barely 145lb for our flight over to mt Diablo with his Quick
    and steve was an FAA safety inspector for 2 decades??!
    the coroners confirmed 280 pounds yesterday for the late passenger
  • John Olson
    by John Olson 2 years ago
    I hesitate to suggest that I too have operated trikes in an over-weight manner (remember Big Ben?) so of course I won't. Just because a trike is overloaded does not mean it's about to start making "popping noises" and plunge from the sky. At least, I hope not! Clearly, there was some other factor involved. More than that I don't care to speculate. I have spent enough on lawyers.

    So I guess no one has seen/heard or otherwise witnessed a failed flyin wire. Correctamundo?
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    John it is not for Guessing that I posted this here...read back my last line on the initial post @ the top.....losing guys,losing machine reputation & passenger life is no speculation fun...where is the lawyer interest in this case? I don't see one ...I see sorry sorry families & people of the trade that are still pioneers after 4 decades...soon five
    safe flying to all
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Of course that is not the reason the accident happened John. I'll just give a technical point
    P&M Quik at 900 pounds gross
    Trim speed around 80 mph
    Stall speed at MTOW 37 mph

    Possible G's generated by abrupt pull out/up can be = 80^2 / 37^2 = 4.67 Gs

    That alone is beyond the operating limits of 4G's but certainly would be worse with 100 pounds over MTOW for the wing.

    In any case, the need to do such a pull up or anything like that if we do that as trike pilots suggests we were already out of options and desperate.
    Fly safe.
    I can assure you though that lawyers will definitely take that MTOW and the overloaded situation and hang onto it in a lawsuit and on the other hand the insurance will wipe its hands of the whole deal because trike was being operated beyond its MTOW. Insurance companies are not in the game to pay up. They will try and avoid paying if they can find a way to. That is what has been the history of light aircraft accidents in the US.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    John is right Magdi. There will definitely be lawyer interest. There is a money pool to get (the trike was insured). The problem is now that insurance will refuse to cover the flight due to weight considerations and it will fall on the families. Sad situation. I hope by some miracle, lawsuits don't happen here but I am not holding my breath.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    P&M's max per seat load is 243 pounds (110 kg) for Quik. That also prohibits having 280 pounds in one seat. Airborne similarly has a per seat max weight restriction of 220 pounds (100 kg). 280 pounds is almost impossible to find as a per seat restriction on any certificated trike. I have not found one. That is why in our school we restrict max weight to 250 pounds per seat because that is what our trikes are tested to.
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    thank you Abid I missed that one about the insurance & lawyers (Cat & Mouse) game, but the guy is away now,& there is a conformity breach as I could tell from weight excess ...you made it clear there with the Gs & the specs limitations that are damn obvious ,why would one take such an obvious risk? one wonders at times
    it is one more of silly sorry situations
    stay safe
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    thanks a lot Abid for your generous effort & genuine concern
  • John Olson
    by John Olson 2 years ago
    It's America. Wherever tragedy falls, the buzzards will gather.

    Abid, have YOU got Pre-Paid legal services for YOUR liability? You and Larry? I did for many years, but I dropped it and now I'm cryin'.

    https://www.prepaidlegal.com

    As my buddy Archie said, "We Americans have the finest justice system money can buy."
  • John Young
    by John Young 2 years ago
    Condolences to family and friends. Tragic.
    Abid - isn't the Quik rated to +6G's and -3G's? Damn difficult to reach these forces in a trike.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Hi Ole,
    Yes we have lawyers. It goes with the territory unfortunately in the US. This is an area US lacks behind some other countries
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Hi John,
    Yes it is rated for +6G and -3 G's. However, once you get to 0 G, what are you going to do. Its weight-shift-control afterall. No weight = No control.
    Negative G rating is only there for the structure to be able to handle transient turbulence loads. So being weightless or in negative Gs in a trike for more than a few moments (turbulence) spells uncontrollable aircraft and the carriage generally falls into the wing and does a sideways tumble or whatever it feels like.
    Yes positive G rating is +4 operational and +6 ultimate. Meaning after +4 Gs, you are in the safety factor area. You are not supposed to be there. At 6 Gs ultimate load factor permanent deformation is allowed.
    These are not aerobatic aircraft. Cessna 172 can only do +3.8 Gs operational. So lets keep perspective.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    BTW, John. Not difficult to reach 4 G's. Put a G meter in and do a 75 degree bank turn and full throttle and try and maintain altitude -- 4 Gs. You can maintain altitude at those bank angles in newer trikes that are high performance, high speed range and efficient trikes but the operating limitations are 4Gs and 60 degrees AOB so it is not advisable to try such things but we know that it can be done and -HAS- been done and recorded in flight dynamically not just static load testing.
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    these links are abput jim Gaither ,did you know? Abid ,a bad news day today & the Quick we're talking about turned out to be Craig Valentine's yellow one that i flew with him in 2009
    sorry for the bad news

    http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/14046220/bodies-recovered-in-area-of-kauai-plane-crash?redirected=true

    http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/116271709.html
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    Gaither was on Feb 17th while I was following the aftermath of Mubarak feb 11th stepping down guess this is why I didn't notice.....shame a Great guy he was
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Not to scare anyone... But all of the wings we are all flying are rated to 6 Gs ULTIMATE. And only 4 Gs is maximum for maneuvering. And while G force by itself is one thing, speed also compounds to what a wing can actually take in the real world. I have personally found that airspeed combined with G force are the ingredients to breaking things. In other words it wasn't until the world air games pylon racing at P+M released a service bulletin after they damaged their wings keel pocket during practice. Practice was getting up to VNE and an making a 180 degree turn as hard and quick as possible. I assure you the wing passed all the sand bag tests for G rating, because I too blew the keel pocket out of a "brand X" wing which was sand bag tested to 6 Gs about 5 years ago and I am quite sure I was only at 3GS or so, but was at VNE (stupid). Bottom line is if you fly most any non aerobatic aircraft, it is possible to brake it, just like it is possible to roll the car you drive end over end. So just because a wing is rated for 6 Gs at gross, doesn't mean you can go to 5 Gs at VNE even solo and not break it. And yes flex wings can pull 5 Gs. In fact 5.1 Gs was recorded at the World Air Games by one of the pilots who only had 120 hours of flight time and actually competed. In other words we could have had a fatality at the race.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Like all the others I will not speculate on these trike groups even though it would be this great discussion for learning and I really do want to. But it hurts people's feelings, makes some people very angry, is considered disrespectful, it can impact law suites, etc. I can tell you after hearing second hand witness reports from a fixed wing pilot that was right there, describing the series of maneuvers, I do have a strong hunch as to the cause of this accident. Usually after getting all of the facts after the NTSB has done their work and usually very informative non public information gets whispered into my ear by off the record sources that are not mentioned in the final report, it usually proves to convince me how safe and reliable our machines really are.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    BTW these are the kinds of things that really hurt, and make me feel bad about the type of videos I sometimes release. After the first post I feel the need to explain further that the wing I used in the last video was purpose built for pylon racing and has a triple sleeved cross tube double tip battens, no plastic flip tips and double sleeved battens to name a few. Also when I did hit VNE I wasn't cranking high G turns... Most importantly I wasn't pushing my own envelope or the aircraft's. Fly safe friends.
  • B  Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 2 years ago
    Thanks for the description of the reinforced wing used in your videos. Purposed built equipment makes a difference.
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    Thanks Larry ,always great input that makes a difference for somebody's understanding.....I just can't understand that marketing ethics take precedence over knowledge & safety .....you Can't have a Hyundai do what a dodge Ram does ...& definitely less a Porsche or a Ferrari ....but let's stick to flying machines here.....the wings that are designed for the Quicks & Rs are meant for speed not for loading ,speed in straight & level ,speed otherwise you fall from the sky (note the landing distance needed) .
    who's scared ? Comprehension is all what is needed ....more than sticking to warnings ...Comprehension my friend
    Stay safe .... you're needed dear friend
    I respect that thing you said that will never be re iterated enough
    - Most importantly I wasn't pushing my own envelope or the aircraft's
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    Abid thanks again
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    For those that want the answer of how to fly safe. How can I avoid what happened, what ever did happen...

    1) make sure you have taken all needed instruction
    2) prefligt
    3) maintain your equipment
    4) get a WX brief before flying
    5) do not fly over areas you cannot land
    6) fly at or under your wings maneuvering speed rating
    7) 30 degrees up and down,
    8) 60 degrees bank or less
    9) don't push your envelope
    10) don't get complacent

    So discussing what someone did or didn't do that caused an accident still boils down to which rules were broken in almost every case. It seems to me that people really want to find out how to avoid accident "X" from happening to them. Those 10 rules should about cover it. Others can add to the list. Obviously some of these rules can be broken or stretched, but if you are asking the question, here is my answer.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Madgi,
    Could you post the link to the article that you mentioned posted the comments from the NTSB with regards to the passenger weight involved in this accident. I just can't find it!!!

    A very sad and unfortunate accident. My condolences to Anna as well the rest of Steve's family and friends, and to the family of the passenger involved. Steve and Anna were looking forward to growing their business in Kauai, and had many plans for the future. Steve will be missed.

    The Yellow/Black Quik Steve was flying was my first P&M Quik demo trike, and it was a very sweet flying trike and great colors in it. Loved it! I think I had some 160 HRS in it and a couple of showings at Sun-N-Fun and Sebring SLSA Expo before it was taken by Craig to California and subsequently by Steve to Kauai. Among many others Larry had an opportunity to fly it as well as Abid.

    Wish you all safe flying,
    Tony C
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    I may add... that perhaps that Yellow Quik may have started some "transformation" in Larry's overall way of thinking about trikes and performance. I think it was Larry's first ride in a Quik and I think it pretty much defined what some of his goals would be for the future as far as handling, performance, etc... of course only Larry would know! but seeing his "grint" after landing ... I could tell he was hooked into handling and performance..!!! Larry and Abid have come a long way in refining their goals and making them a reality, and that Yellow Quik ride he had some years back, may be had contribute some to a good start to that ....
    Tony C
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Hi Tony, I think it was the coroners report not NTSB that had the autopsy results (weight etc.)
    As to the yellow Quik. I didn't realize that was the same Quik that I flew in 2007 or something in that crash.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Hello Abid. I just could not find anything in print with that regard (in NTSB or newspapers!) ...

    Indeed that was the same aircraft you flew, bounced the take off - got it going a bit too soon !!!, then asked me to slow it down in the pattern ... I said ... I will slow it down if you quite saying you guys have the fastest trike ... jaja... indeed it was Sun-N-Fun 2007 .. trike was brand new!
    TC
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    after that flight you changed your claims and indeed commented to customers that you had the 2nd fastest trike ;-)
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    funny thing is that we were only doing about 82mph .... things have changed quite a bit... at 80mph I sometimes feel I'm floating!!!... flight is fine and safe at those speeds, coordinated turns, altitude, keep your equipment airworthy, and stay within the aircraft limitations and all will be just fine!

    I do know that the SNF pattern was quite busy, you had not flown it in a while, was your first flight on the show, many slow machines ahead ... we were passing all ... , bla, bla ... ;-)
    TC
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    Tony hi
    the one that posted the Coroners piece of info was Denise & Tom Sanders of paradise Air Hawaii ,indeed like Abid mentioned above (it's too fresh for NTSB preliminary report ,even)....Denise posted it on a closed Linked in group page for Rainbow aviation LSRM grads sort of speak ,Carol Carpenter is the moderator,
    here is Denise linked in public profile
    http://www.linkedin.com/pub/paradise-air/14/26a/639
    and here is their company website
    http://www.paradiseairhawaii.com/
    -I spent 2 & a half hour on that trike into Moon Rise over Napa Valley & around Mt; Diablo with Craig early in May 2009 out of Lodi ,I couldn't tell that anybody flew it before Craig ,it had less than 400 hrs @ the time....it was a joy
    these are all sorry endings in a field we are so few & close together
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    Steve was @ the LSRM class of November 2010
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    • News reported yesterday from coroners report that passenger was 280 lbs. Anyone know what a PM quick can take?
    that was that
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Hello Magdi,
    I do know it was not "official" but IF it was indeed mentioned by Jim Struhsaker and provided by the Coroners then is as good as official ... but I just can't find anything on that and I was just looking for confirmation.

    I do recall Craig did mention about meeting you sometime back.

    Regards
    Tony C
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    I kept that trike as good as new!!! Craig had a fairly new Airborne XT 912 ... he took one flight in the Quik, and pretty much landed, and wrote a check!!! well not before negotiating me down to almost loosing money on it :-(
    TC
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    Denise would probably give you a news roundup
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    I just noticed ... in fact is the same trike as my profile photo here!
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    an incredible bunch in san Fransisco & indeed in Lodi
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 years ago
    As Larry provides the simple 10 points to safe flying above lets remember all the deaths in Hawaii are a common "low level over water" and most deaths could have been prevented by being high enough to deploy a parachute over land or water. Things add up. Low level over water, overloaded, flying outside of the manfacturers limitations. Three strikes.
    Reduce risk. See our "risk management" at the trike training group to lower your risk factor to fly as safe as you want and help avoid accidents.
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    Well put Paul ....Very well put
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Hi Tony,
    Yes that trike takes off easy in ground effect. Yes I was not used to the electric trim of the Quik. I didn't like its position (on the side instead on the instrument panel), to tell you honestly I still don't like that :). Change it man.
    Yeah but seriously things have changed so much. I climb out regularly at 75 to 80 mph now at 900 to 1000 FPM. Quite a difference a few years make. But 82 mph is quite fast for the other planes in the UL area at Sun N Fun and at Oshkosh including the airplanes like Challenger and Kolbs and so on. They are all slower than these newer trikes.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    If you e-mail the coroner's office, they will send you the report Tony
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Abid, trim is perfect where it is. One hand you trim & adjust hand throttle & control bar. No need to reach under or over the control bar. No need to lean forward, reach or even look for it. After one flight and learn where & how ... you don't want it any other place. One hand push out some control bar to slow, trim til' no pressure, done. I would not like it any other way.
  • Toby SkyDog
    by Toby SkyDog 2 years ago
    As far as I can tell it does not matter if they were over water or not. Just too low to use the parachute for all 3 trikes in Hawaii. They all just happened to be over water. If you POP AND DROP, land is just as bad as water without enough altitude to deploy a parachute.
  • John Olson
    by John Olson 2 years ago
    I am sitting here having coffee with my ol' amigo Craig who also worked on Kauai. We are re-hashing the episode where he and Robert both had to vacuum the Kauai red dirt from their fuel tanks. Someone tried to sand bag them. If that ain't suspicious, I dunno what is!
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 2 years ago
    Toby, parachutes have a weight rating also.

    (EDIT: Ah, I see now that Toby SkyPup edited his post about just popping the chute to make it more appropriate. Atta boy!)
  • Lee Schmitt
    by Lee Schmitt 2 years ago
    to emphasize Paul's " low level over water" point: there was another recent crash in hawaii that occurred over land and the chute was deployed... there were injuries but the pilot and passenger survived, right?
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Yep, they were just stuck on a cliff for 2 days. And an artificial horizon the Enigma offers could have guided them out of the cloud they became disoriented in had they been equipped with that from what I understood.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 years ago
    Yes Lee there was a semi recent crash over land where a parachute was deployed and both survived. No artificial horizon would heve helped here. A GPS perhaps would have helped avoid.
  • Ken Nussear
    by Ken Nussear 2 years ago
    I would take stuck on a cliff over dead with my face ripped off any day.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 years ago
    David O has a good point. But the last "POP" I would want to hear is the rocket firing out and the POP of the chute opening no matter what the weight. Altitude speeds up the chute descent rate similar to extra weight.
  • Michael Brandt
    by Michael Brandt 2 years ago
    Did Steve have a chute to deploy? I flew with him last year and he didn't. How many seconds would it take to deploy a chute if he had one? If he was only a couple hundred feet above the water would he have enough time? I am here in Kauai now. I was planning to fly with Steve the day he and his passenger parished. I've been talking to some of the locals here and a reoccuring theme here is that trikes are flying close to the cliffs and very low to the water and touring boats to the point that it is pissing off people. One boat crew member said he would never fly in a trike because they are very unsafe. I had to try and convince him otherwise. Unfortunatly trikes are getting a bad reputation here in Kauai recently.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    200 feet above the ground the chute is useless. There is no point in having a chute if you are planning to fly that low regularly. It wasn't "all trikes" flying low and close to the cliffs and boats or the deck Michael. The ones that were, I am sorry to say are gone now. Local people complained about those individuals but it was already too late.
    I received the following from an FAA officer and it shows how a few people who create problems for the whole flying community.

    "Unfortunately regardless of the situation and circumstance it reflects poorly on the Light Sport Industry as well as the FAA.

    I would expect (considering these recent events) some changes to operational rules and policy as related to Light Sport Aircraft.

    I don't know in what form or manner this will be but it has of course garnered much attention from Executive Leadership ranks here at the FAA.

    I will keep you posted if I hear of any proposals that are open to public input. "

    If people flying trikes don't think their flying habits can effect the whole trike pilot community in the US. This should be a wake up call for you.
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    Amen to that Abid....Big Time
    And we're losing precious capabilities if used in the proper manner & Context
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Me and a few others have been working slowly to possibly do a commercial certificate for trikes and this puts a huge dampener on that.
  • Qazi  Ajmal
    by Qazi Ajmal 2 years ago
    such a sad news. we need fly safe..... coz life is precious.......
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 2 years ago
    Abid, in regards to the above, what do you think about promoting videos that promote safe trike flying and avoiding videos that glorify dangerous trike behavior (and or document for the FAA / public bad behavior). Leading by example?
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    I agree. I think David you are talking about Wes's videos of Larry test flying some new developments to put it through the paces.
    1) You have never seen me do a video like that and post it
    2) Wes and Larry personally can do whatever they would like to do, that is not a reflection on Evolution Trikes or Apollo Aircraft. For instance the last video Larry did is not on Evolution Trikes website even though it had all the appropriate warnings on it and clearly stated it is a test flight video etc.
    3) Larry's videos like that are never ever with any passenger and that is a huge point. You can do whatever you like alone but when you take a paying passenger/student up the game completely changes IMHO.
    4) I agree that manufacturers and trike schools have a responsibility to promote safe triking in general
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 2 years ago
    Hi Abid, Not necessarily your videos, but the fact that you guys are influential in the industry and spend a good deal of time here in the influence position. SkyPup for example is pretty enamored with your work and even wanting to go for exciting at the limit rides with Larry. If you use your position(s) to promote the safer and equally enjoyable aspects of flying, we could save lives and retain our privledges (that are as you noted, and we all fear) are going to be reduced as a result of any/all bad outcomes- especially the recent ones.

    (Not saying not to fly however you want (use good judgement)- but perhaps we shoulld really ask the benefit of videotaping questionable activities for public promotion. It causes confusion and unrealistic expectations and worse.)
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 2 years ago
    Abid and others, thank you so much for the work on Commercial Trike licensure!!!
  • B  Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 2 years ago
    I would suggest that if there are those who disagree with the content of some video that it is incumbent upon them to make something better that presents their viewpoint and will outperform the competition. The alternative, trying to modify someone else's behavior by questioning the validity of their actions generally does not produce positive results. The diversity of video topics on TPS is a reflection of healthy sport.
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 2 years ago
    B. alvarius advocates no net change. Isn't the definition of insanity, continuing to do the same thing yet being surprised that the outcome is no different. What we're doing as a sport and industry is not necessarily working. Two weeks after discussing the ease with which a trike may takeoff / land hands off- a pilot dies trying to take off / land without instruction (not necessarily hands off, we don't know (and he may never have been influendced by that discussion, but some probably are / were). Think of the SkyPup, he's here soaking it all up. Without some moderation / influence from on top, he's going to get the wrong opinion.

    What's your position on videos that clearly demonstrate activities that are illegal in the US and at the same time the video states this activity was performed on X date, by X pilot in X state? What's your opinion of what the FAA thinks about that kind of in your face kiss off? Are we just crossing our fingers now during this backdoor review by the FAA of our sport they aren't watching these videos? What about other pilots / commercial interests watching these and forming (mis) opinions?

    Nuff said- I'm out ....
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Hi David,
    Your points are good ones.
    I would if I may though just suggest that if a pilot or test pilot owns shares of a company in even significant numbers, they still have their own free will with their own personally owned Experimental trike. They are not paid employees/officers of the company. The company cannot force anything. I respect Larry's freedom as such to do what he feels gives him joy. I do have a problem if he starts to do that type of flying with passengers and I will talk to him if he does something like that with a passenger as his friend and fellow flyer. About his own solo flying he knows and has been made aware of the risks not once but many times and he is a big boy and can make his own decisions as PIC.

    Not to mention that if pilot X thinks he can fly like Larry, he can't. Larry has now over 4000 hours and moreover, he has flown more models of trikes and wings out in the industry than probably anyone, certainly more than me. Larry also use to do something even much more dangerous than being a test pilot before. He was a crotch rocket enthusiast and his father tells me that he was breathing easier when Larry started trike flying. So the relative danger for Larry probably actually reduced.
    The test flights however by definition put the aircraft through maneuvers that are well beyond the operating limits to show and establish controllability, stability and responsiveness in handling. Nothing can replace a good regimen of test flights for either performance or handling characteristics. No amount of static load testing or structural analysis or any other static test can replace actual live, hands-on flight test regimen.

    Lets understand that the manufacturer's operating limits in trikes are very well known and both me and Larry tell people that if they want to make certain bad things do not happen to them, then follow those limitations. 30 degrees pitch up or down, 60 degrees angle of bank, Maneuvering speed (that so many trike pilots just do not seem to understand) Va, and VNe (Never Exceed Speed), Avoid weightlessness and negative Gs. Avoid Whip stalls.
    I saw Larry write 10 rules just yesterday or day before including all of this in this very thread somewhere up there.

    Abid
  • Toby SkyDog
    by Toby SkyDog 2 years ago
    If you were referring to me as soaking it all up I am. It must be understood, Larry clearly said he would not take me up for his type of flying, and I think the risk management at the training group explains it all and why.

    I think for me the Paul Hamilton quote "the last "POP" I would want to hear is the rocket firing out and the POP of the chute opening" is great insight for me.
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 2 years ago
    Abid, again, I'm really only referring to your prominence in the industry and possible ability to move the conversation and/or behavior in a positive direction. I'm not referring specifically to anyone's behavior in specific, including Larry. I'm referring to all our behavior / attitudes, mine most especially. I'm hoping you can use your super-power to provide positive influence on the industry / sport.
  • Toby SkyDog
    by Toby SkyDog 2 years ago
    David O,
    I guess if we wanted to criticize videos, someone could say there we to many of boring videos of a bunch of pussies flying around like a bunch of old ladies. Boring. I agree with B Alvarius that diversity is what is healthy for the sport. Not everyone wants to see the same old stuff.
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 2 years ago
    I worry for you Toby.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 years ago
    SkyPup,
    Again down boy. This is a very sensative issue that can create anger, name calling and hurt the sport.

    The rest of you get a grip. Monkey see monkey do? Turn on the TV --Do you go out and do everything you see there? I do not think so. If you do not like something, turn it off. Put your energies into producing something that promotes your opinion in a positive way.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 years ago
    As far as someone suggesting that rAbid be Larry's mother. Probably not. But there is a great story there I am sure.
  • B  Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 2 years ago
    David

    Your conclusion is erroneous, I did not say that I "advocate[d] no net change". I believe it is incumbent upon those who wish to see change, to create the change. Create the videos you would like to see, make them better and more interesting than the other guys and they will be successful. In turn the whole community will start to follow. I would like to see each of the PTS maneuvers presented in a video format. That would be interesting, instructive, informative, and help student pilots in training for their check ride. Make the video fun and interesting and others will start to spread it around.
  • Jan Ferreira
    by Jan Ferreira 2 years ago
    SkyPup, I enjoy flying my Trike and I like making boring videos that I can watch when I am old and can not fly anymore. I suppose I fall in the category "bunch of old ladies or a pussy", well I would rather be an old pussy than a young dead Dick. I suggest you get a Trike and do some flying before you share your "no-experience" comments on this site. You don't come over as someone who seriously want to join the sport. If your are making comments here to stir up controversies and calling people names you are not going to be on this site much longer. Guys like you get the boot.
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    Can I ask a question here? why all this fuss around a one or two videos that are a test flight evidence? what about the 30+ other videos produced by the same team (DUO) showing finger tip control flying & smooth moves over controls & aircraft....what applies behind the steering wheels of a Car applies here my friends.....DO not fly beyond what you CAN Control & there is an aviation term to that, that Larry pointed out in his 10 items input up there
    It is called Pilot envelop & Aircraft envelop ....just like L/D MAX ,why not take that into limiting the envelop of debate here?
    -If a pilot gets away with an excess once ,doesn't mean it will repeat again
    -when you want to push your luck do not involve an innocent that trusted the common code of Human ethics applied to you while you were taking him (that very same innocent that is taken for a luck charm) to enhance your own chances of going weird if you want to
    why is it that we do not take the absolute luck we have among others to enjoy the safe parameters of a Sport & leave Red Bull for those who apply & Comply & Belong to the Red Bull Arena?
    There is a lot @ stake here ,for wannabe's,for Pilots,for professionals of an industry,for Fans & real people in the trade
    There are people that definitely didn't wanna die both pilots & definitely passengers that generously help keep our dream going,there is an FAA & its Sisters around the world that are going out of their ways to extend their tolerance & expertise to make it happen for US all
    and most of All their are Families like ours that are not yet in a position to swallow their sorrow & grief (not to mention realizing the fact) they just lost their loved ones ,some of us,and that alone deserves that this talk remains within the limits of responsible debate that keeps the Rest of us that are lucky to still be here going and trying to make sure we grow safer pilots,a safer industry & most importantly a bigger community of safe flyers
    * that was the idea behind me posting this issue in the first place....and I jsut discovered along this sad event I Lost another friend ( a very safe pilot/instructor) that many can approve of, a few weeks earlier to the same island of KAUAI....and I know he was not out there to die.....God Bless their souls all of them....Jim Gaither is the Man I was talking about here
    Sorry if I got a bit carried away....this is not a moment of winning a talk......it is a moment for recap.....how can make our personal skies safer for a lot more happy landings
    it really doesn't need a take off to end up in a Box.....there are a lot cheaper ways to get there
  • Charlie Porter
    by Charlie Porter 2 years ago
    Abid, I have personally witnesses a ballistic chute on a paraglider save a guys life at less than 50ft agl. The chute may not open all the way at altitudes below 200ft., but if it slows you down some you could possibly live through it. Chutes might possibly help if you forget to set up your trike properly or if something breaks during level flight , but they are totally useless if you tumble due to a blown aerobatic maneuver.
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    On the Dot Charlie....absolutely right
  • B  Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 2 years ago
    I submit this trike video I made, just me and no one else, with an $80 video camera and an old laptop with software that came with the camera. It uses public domain footage (Duck and Cover) and creative commons licensed music. It illustrates an idea about low level flying. So give your ideas life, make a video for TPS. Whatever you believe, feel is right, think others should be doing, or want to record for posterity, express it visually. Get up in the air and make something, because friends: What can be done on the ground is more fun in the air (hows that for a mental image?).

    http://www.trikepilot.com/videos/view/personal-protection_5991.html?m=31
  • Toby SkyDog
    by Toby SkyDog 2 years ago
    Jan,
    Actually I enjoy your videos. With all the Tanargs and Revos fighting it out, your trike looks like the most streamline and well put together. Please do not be offended I was just trying to provide a different opinion. It looks like you hang around with the dynamic duo Larry and Wess so I guess that shoots down David O theory about "Monkey see Monkey do”. Is this correct?????

    Thanks again for your great diversity of your videos. I am one of your video fans. Please accept my apology. My comments were meant to support diversity.
  • Jan Ferreira
    by Jan Ferreira 2 years ago
    Toby, apology accepted. It is not easy to always make interesting videos with one camera mount possition. I try my best to make something with the limited footage from one camera. I just enjoy taking the videos and relive the experience while editing the video. My purpose is to promote Trike flying and show how much fun it is. Not always fun flying with Larry and Wes, they always cry when I beat them.
  • Toby SkyDog
    by Toby SkyDog 2 years ago
    Jan,
    Thanks. Yes living in the world of hot "dogs" shows a great diversity in the land of FL. Do you fly out of the same airport as wes/larry?
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Toby, I taught Jan to fly and sold him that pretty little bird. That machine is truly generation 1 of the Revo today. And Jan in turn has persuaded us to release the all new full engine enclosure coming soon for the REVO after bragging on his stream lined Delta Jet's engine enclosure for nearly a half decade now and doing a photo shop rendering of the Revo with the enclosure which got my blood pumpoing to do the project. And yes Jan flies pretty straight and level and the only thing he does otherwise is let me fly formation with him which is always fun!
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    No offense to Armondo or Mike or any others that have posted videos similar of flying over open water with no glide to anything landable. The videos were well done, and quite enjoyable for me to watch and I'm sure evryone else. But to me this is something that not only scares me, but I flat out refuse to do it. Even the day my friends left me and flew across Tampa Bay for a cheesburger lunch at Albert Whitted airport. They said "come on Larry, there will be like only 4-5 minutes where if your motor quites you go in the drink". I stayed back all by my looser self... :-(

    These guys making a trip half way around the world encountering not only open water, but weather and I gottta get there-itis, is a recipe for disaster and the last guy out of the UK didn't make it going down in the English Channel. Yet I believe I quote David O saying like 5 weeks ago the parapalegic trike pilot attempting this great feat was promoting our sport in a possitive way. I agree!!! BUT I couldn't disagree more if we are talking about monkey see monkey do. You will also notice I do have a photo of me with Mike Blyth (guy who flew around the world in a trike) on my website right on the home page? Yep he is my hero, and while I may posess a certain skill set, I have no desire to "risk my life" repeating or trying to repeat what Mike Blyth accomplished or hopefully what this fine gentleman currently flying to Austraila will hopefully accomplish safely.

    Lastly the last video I did showed precision control, not pushing it. there is a difference. I have seen pleny of trike pilots do really stupid out of control things and that is not something we are promoting. Just like We are not promoting using trikes to island hop. But Armondo is a big boy and knows what he is doing and knows the risks. And the increased risks by choosing a 2 stroke :-) If he starts commuting paying passengers from island to island, that IS DIFFERENT...
  • Jan Ferreira
    by Jan Ferreira 2 years ago
    Check Dave's Blog about his flying experience over Saudi Arabia. I think it is much worse than flying over the water.
    http://www.soloflightglobal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=34&Itemid=63
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 2 years ago
    B., thanks for clarifying your feelings, I know we're still friends. I do believe though if you're seeing results you don't like, see what you can do to change it. In regards to videos, I have published videos, some that would make little dogs nervous (see my videos flying Yosemite (both HG & Trike)) (go on, go see my other videos too, enjoy them).
    Toby, I've gotten over trying to prove I have guts, I can tell you I've waded into many many situations that many other people have run from and /or broken into tears over-- I have no need to prove I have more guts than you. My friends don't feel I have any lack of guts- but not because I'm out there trying to prove that. Through my experience, I've learned that the way to get through the critical situations is to be well informed, remain calm and clear and have proper preparedness and not to challenge the limits or you will meet them. I haven't seen this critical decision making ability evident in your posts yet. I've stopped challenging the hard limits in life (Vne), but I am challenging the "soft limits" of triking and planning bigger and bigger adventures. I've been WITH more people than I can count who met their limits. I worry for you because you're nonchalant about things you shouldn't be (just pop the chute) and gutsy with limited triking experience/skill to base that on.
    I and the private Tanarg pilot supporters are not in a fight with the Revo company. Revo attacked AirCreation, we responded by informing the public what we like about Tanarg. Revo wound up the PR machine to try and counter every single post- was that appropriate when an appology was what was more indicated???
    I think Abid, Larry and I are still friends. Abid likes to say he won't stand for BS being posted here, but by the same token, as a friend, I'll tell him what I think.
    I do make videos that show the positive and exciting. I leave out what isn't appropriate for any young pups or governmental blood hounds- I personally dont want that on my hands. You want to film yourself flying crazy.... I'd say be my guest, but I don't want to see that (and if you're going to do that, and or possibly film your own end, don't film it in an AirCreation). :)

    I also am part of the team that with Henry IMGW makes the positive videos you guys like. I do much of the flight planning, the calls regarding skirting the dangers, the backup plans, etc. In less than two months we hope to dazzle you with some stunning scenes again.

    We've seen too much sorrow. The question is, is promoting being a big dog and not a pussy worth any further loss? Huh, Toby?
    Peace, and be careful.
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 2 years ago
    I was probably typing while Larry's post above hit. Just read it now. I like it. We're not much different at all, or in much of a disagreement at all.
  • B  Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 2 years ago
    David

    Excellent, a team creating videos makes the job easier and certainly more input the better the product. I look forward to the next production.

    I do not view a pilot's efforts to create a video something that promotes being a big dog or a pussy. Rather I evaluate the ideas presented, the flight segments filmed, and how the filmed segments support what I interpret as the idea behind the video.

    I believe that any idea can be turned into a trike video. For example Shakespear's Two Men of Verona could be adapted into a trike video. The trick would be to tell the story in couple of minutes with good flying segments.

    I would also like to point out that all these video efforts only go to demonstrate that trikes are good inexpensive alternatives to helicopters in movies. It's like a flying steady cam, you can aim it where you want and move in 3 dimensions.
  • Peter Soderberg
    by Peter Soderberg 2 years ago
    safety is in the brain not in the equipment guys (rule no 1-1.00000000000000000000000
    happy QuikR flyer (maybe happier in a Revo) what ever, better than my old blade but far more challenging
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 years ago
    History repeats itself. All these experts saying what the public should see with videos. From calm and tranquil to extreme and radical.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 years ago
    If we were smart and wanted to provide the best public image, our headlines and focus would not be on trike deaths. This is the image we are promoting for trikes to the general public at this forum. DUH.... So instead of talking about how great triking is and the spirit, adventure and challenge, you can will be defending yourself because of all the bad things they read about trikes. History repeats itself. Look at the ultralight reputation.....
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 years ago
    Sorry Joe I was not clear. I am talking about the headlines WE make here. We make headlines for our self. We have less control of the headlines the media makes but WE do have control of the headlines we make here on this site which the general public sees.

    Yes Joe I agree with you completely that we need to turn the page and provide a positive image of triking HERE where WE have control.

    A little advice about the media. Do not believe everything you read in the news paper, see on TV or see on the internet. Many times it is misleading and not correct.
    Hopefully this is more clear for you and others on how to turn the page.
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    No Comment....in all Humble Due Respect
  • Captain X
    by Captain X 2 years ago
    Paul, Joe, I agree. I didn't see why three separate blogs / headlines needed to be started here each of the past three times. I am fully behind this statement "...we need to turn the page and provide a positive image of triking HERE where WE have control."
  • dave kempler
    by dave kempler 2 years ago
    Whether the media reports an incident accurately or not, a death is still a death. It saddens us and no doubt strikes a chord of fear in all of us that it very well could have been one of us on board. Nobody goes out there to die. Everytime I read that something is attributed to pilot error and the mistakes or series of mistakes that were made that precipitated dissaster, I begin to rationalize for myself that "OK, there was a stupid reason for that accident" which allows me to keep flying myself. I'm not proud of that attidude, but it keeps me in the air. Otherwise, as I see friends and flying acquaintences die, I'd probably say, what the heck am I doing? Don't I value and respect my life?

    So, not discussing and learning from these tragedies for the sake of promoting an image of safety seems counter- productive for all of us. Doesn't respect for life outweigh image of the sport? The truth is that people die doing it. Not discussing the facts and opinions seems to at least show lack of respect for the lives that have been lost or the lives of those who continue in the sport. If the FAA can see the truth yet some in the trike flying group at large want to sweep it under the rug, then I'd expect that the trike flying comunity will be swept under the rug. Creating an image where all is perfect with trike flying is essentially creating an image with the FAA that we're all a bunch of suicidal yahoos and deserve negative attention and quashing.

    By showing our concern both emotionally and with science/engineering, I believe that despite the truth, we as the trike flying community at large are doing everything possible to improve the sport, improve safety, and improve relations with the FAA. THAT will promote a positive image. We fly experimental aircraft. We're all test pilots. That makes our sport an ongoing scientific project. Failure to discuss failure for the sake of image will kill us and the sport.
  • Nathan White
    by Nathan White 2 years ago
    I mentioned this idea before, and never got any feedback. Now might be a good time to run it by everyone again.

    My wife is an avid horse fanatic and subscribes to clubs that provide monthly videos. These videos include instructional topics, health tips, equipment, events, and fun footage to watch. She really enjoys them and looks forward to getting them each month. She watches them over and over.

    We need something like this for Trike Flying! If we could get someone out there like Paul and some of the other instructors/video gurus to put together a monthly video, I would definitely pay to subscribe to it. The videos could include instructional topics, safety topics, equipment maintenance, new products, reviews of FAA regs, places to go, events coverage, fun flying footage... Members could submit ideas and their own videos to include in upcoming DVD's.

    It would give us something to look forward to each month. It would give us something that we could keep and watch over and over on those non flying days. And would show the world (and the FAA) that we are professional/serious about our sport, and that we want to increase our knowlege, skills and safety.

    I know that this site provides alot of this, and is a GREAT site, but there is just something nice about getting a cool DVD in the mail, going home, plopping down on the couch and watching it without having to sit in front of a computer. And it is something to keep and collect and show other interested people.

    If a topic is on the computer, it might, or might not get looked at, but if it is on a DVD, it WILL get watched. I think most people learn better by watching and seeing, than by reading.

    This would be a great, fun learning tool and the possibilities for it are only limited by our imaginations. I think it would be a fun and educational project for someone who has the capabilities to do this and it would benefit all of us, and our sport.
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    Nathan White thank you very much for making those points the way you did ...this is absolutely the very Motivation of my posting this very sorry learning event.
    Our community is only going to get further ahead with these kinds of critic retrospectives ......
    Learning is a constructive,,progressive Cumulative process ,when technology & social Media enable us to re invent the investment of Time & effort ...getting there faster on a more rigorous platform of integrity we should enjoy that speed of process not kill it showing off what we do not know & master ...just because we did not get the knowledge required to help the discussion.....this has to remain informative,fact finding ,educational, constructively participative & Mostly fun
    This Platform has to become our prefered place for homework & universal sharing ....it is a wealth No Money Can Buy
  • Jim M
    by Jim M 2 years ago
    Flew with Steve a few times at Zuehl. Praying for his family, friends, and passenger's family. Tragic loss. I read this whole thread. As some have said, this whole issue will snowball.

    I will try to learn from all I have read here and incorporate into my flying. I fly a plane mostly but am in the process of getting my trike set up, choosing a wing, ect. I choose to learn... Thanks to all who participate.
  • Mark Rubenstein
    by Mark Rubenstein 2 years ago
    WOW, I am speachless! I just joined the Pegasus group today to see what's going on. I have an "investment property" that I took from a run down foreclosure, then rehabbed it, & now selling and going to closing on Tuesday afternoon. Knowing that I'll have a nice chunk of cash in my bank by Tuesday evening, I knew my next step had to be a trike of my own. On Wednesday, I will be buying the Pegasus 503 Super Sport here in the Houston area from Christine Sholar, who apparently bought it more than a year ago from someone in I believe Texarkana. I'll FINALLY be the owner of a trike. So Why I am posting this here on this thread, because in 2007 I drove with my (now ex-wife) to Hondo, Texas a small town where I attended my first (and what was to be it's last fly-in) The SWRFI South West Regional Fly In. Light Sport was VERY NEW then. I went mainly to look at stick & rudder aircraft like the CGS Hawk, QuickSilver, Hornet, M-Squared, etc. When we got to the ultralight area, my wife tugged on me and said "What is that?" I looked over and said.."Gee, I dont know! Let's go look." It was then, I had met Steve Sprague. He introduced both she and I to triking in his Yellow Aquila stick trike. Piping the song "Into the Danger Zone" from the movie Top Gun on the headset. It was with those flights in 2007 that I knew what I wanted to fly trikes. A year later, I met with Steve in San Antonio to discuss his training program. There was something about him, that made me not want to have him as my instructor. In 2009, I was able to log 17 hrs with Scott Johnson, but due to distance, time, weather, I did not get to finish. I think there is a point where like ur solo, you remember your first flight. Mine was with Steve. I am sorry and saddened by this unfortunate event. Had it not been for him being there, I might not have ever been introduced to trikes. I have had some setbacks, death of my mom, divorce, merger at my job and other things, but now the time is ripe for me to embark on this adventure. I will be the owner of a Peg and will find an instructor and hope to be airborne soon with dual instruction and then on to solo and safe slow flight. I am ready to do this!
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Hey Mark, on the up side of your story, CONGRATULATIONS!!! you have been needing to actually get a trike for some time now, and that's putting it lightly. We just finished training a guy in a 503 Peg. really nice machine! Welome to the club. Finally...
  • Mark Rubenstein
    by Mark Rubenstein 2 years ago
    Thank you Larry. You are 100% right! This was the only way I was going to be able to get any ground speed...(so to speak) in my training. I have my 2 week vacation coming up soon & have thinking about calling you to see if I could bring it to ZPH and train in that Florida weather. (I am buying it with an open trailer) One of the reasons I had thought about that is, just the huge concentration of trikers in the area that would make the training and support that much more fun. I will get with you soon Larry about the specific dates and if you and if your apartment in the hangar is available during that time frame. I am really so happy about making this HUGE step and I am so excited.
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    The best wrap up of this issue for now would be to put you a link here to an extensively constructively objective article that handles the whole Hawaii trike situation with 3 fatal trike fatalities on our laps...
    Terry Sipantzi a DPE,instrucor owner of Precision windsports that caters the line of Airborne trikes to the east coast market for decades now ...based in Lynchberg,virginia
    here goes his take
    http://www.precisionwindsports.com/Newsletters/jun2011/responsible.html
  • Spencer Forman
    by Spencer Forman 2 years ago
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    Cheers Spencer & thanks
  • Magdi Shalash
    by Magdi Shalash 2 years ago
    http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/20110609__FAA_studies_air_trikes__to_elevate__their_safety.html
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