A study in recent trike accidents

Published by: Rizwan Bukhari on 6th Sep 2015 | View all blogs by Rizwan Bukhari


I am so sad at the news of Bill Crow passing away. His Revo crashed and he sustained many injuries. He was air lifted and passed away in the hospital.

Before we go any further, I want to be very clear in saying that all I want to do is to find some answers. This is a fact finiding mission and that is the only purpose here. As we know that in a year and a half (since last may 2014) This is the fourth Revo trike incident/accidents. Out of the four, three proved to be a fatal. This is not good statistical data. And I feel this is important to point out and discuss what caused them. I can think of atleast 6 or 7 Revo accidents.

Now I know many of you trike pilots are thinking this but I will put it in words that we would like some answers from the industry leaders and their mouth pieces who leave no stone unturned to promote their product via blogs as the best trike money can buy.

I hope you realize that every life lost affects many other lives. The pilots that perished flying your machines, their death impacted their children, spouse, friends and their entire life style. That is a huge cross to bear.

If I was to compile a data of total "top of the line trikes" sold and total accidents and fatalities of these trikes. The percentage so far would not look very favorably towards the manufacturer and the dealers. And hopefully we can find an answer for pilot safety, whether it is more training or some other solution, whatever it maybe.

So lets examine some of the accidents and what caused them.
 
First Gerry of Birds in Paradise perished last May, he had modified the vent system, that caught fire during the flight and we all know that much but no one has ever answered why he felt the need to modify the vent system? Was it a poor design?

Then Craig died and according to eye witnesses his Revo trike and the wing seperated. Should any trike (forget top of the line trike claims for a second) behave like that. Craig, like Gerry was an experienced pilot. I would like to know what happened there?

William in Virginia Revo stalled and crashed in five to six feet deep water. The trike was totalled but he should be counting his blessings that it didn't happen on asphalt or the outcome could have been fatal.

And now Bill Crow....this is very sad. These four accidents have happened in about one and a half year.

And while we mourn the loss of our good friend Bill, the loss of Scmidt's brother and near death experience of the gentleman flying Henry's trike with a Revo wing are fresh in memory.
 
 I hope you can give us an explanation with the same enthusiasm as you promote your products. Because pilot lives are important too.

Another thing while we are at this topic is that majority of trike pilots already are talking about (and I am pretty sure that you are aware of this) your wing being prone to instability at high speed that could cause spirals, but what do I know. And if that is true, the solution should have been to fix the problem with a poor desinged or tuned wing rather than shoving Spiral Dive Recovery as PTS manuvers to protect yourself from impending law suits . So the question is that how many lives will be lost before we fix these problems?

I sincerely hope that I am not offending the manufacturer and the leaders, but firmly making my point that next time you aggressively promote or sell your product, please also be prepared to answer about the fatalities and imperfections too and what are you doing to fix them. Because pilot lives matter.

We all learn from our mistakes, the important question here is what have you done or are you doing to make sure that no more lives are lost.

Thank you,

 

Riz

(PS: My intention here is to learn to clarify some qustions that are on many mind and find some solutions that are on your mind).

Comments

197 Comments

  • Todd Ware
    by Todd Ware 2 years ago
    Riz, This is a good inquiry. And we should be asking these questions. But the answers so far don't point to any problem with the Revo.

    Please allow my commentary on the events that you have mentioned.
    Gerry crashed his Revo from lack of fuel, before his fatal crash. Gerry was a long awaiting "accident" with many previous dangerous incidents.
    Then he altered his fuel system to be able to fill more fuel per flight (or some other reason). If he would have simply added fuel when nesssesary, and not tried to stretch his ground crew refuelings, he and the red revo would still be with us.
    Repeated poor decisions did him in.
  • Todd Ware
    by Todd Ware 2 years ago
    I have flown 4 Revos thus far. They are fine aircraft all the way around.
    Just like most aircraft crashes, these crashes are obviously from pilots' poor decisions.
    Craig Ewing took off into a thunder storm. Plain and simple bad ADM. He must have felt slightly invincible, but not ready for the severity of that storm. Simple death by bad aeronautical decision..
  • Todd Ware
    by Todd Ware 2 years ago
    This latest crash was obviously a pilot error in the last moments of flight. Even if the engine failed, this could have been brought in much better. And if the engine failed . . . was it a Rotax problem? A fuel problem?

    The (Henry TL) spiral dive was simply a lack of airspeed through a turn, combined with a whale viewing distraction. It is all viewable in the video. That was no wing issue, unless you are used to big 19 meter wings, or something.
    Riz, I'm offering here that each of these crashes have been pilot errors, and we should be learning from those errors. The Revo was unfortunately the venue for the errors. Study, the reports. Actually fly a Revo . . . there is simply nothing wrong with them. It I were the manufacturer at this point, I would have a more stringent pilot certification process.
    Just because you can afford a Revo does not mean that you are really ready to fly one.
    Maintaining airspeed is not rocket science!
    Just do what is appropriate for your aircraft.
    The Revo is an evolved aircraft, and its pilots have to evolve accordantly, to the speed and precision involved. This is simple physics. Not an inherently difficult aircraft. The Revo is very forgiving within its envelope of performance. I know, as I pushed that envelope.
    Although, it will be interesting to hear why this trike engine was "Sputtering".
    I'd bet that the engine sputtering will be traced back to a pilot maintenance problem too.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    I can comment on Gerry's first crash. He took off with about 4 gallons of fuel with a paying passenger for 1+ hour flight, ignored the low fuel warnings on the EFIS 30 minutes before fuel ran out that passenger witnessed as well and asked me directly to lie to NTSB on his behalf which I didn't and then he hated me ever since. Not that I cared. FAA suspended his license for 90 days due to that accident and warned him about fuel management. I hope he rests in peace. I can't say anything directly on the second crash with fatalities. I was well out of Revo business at that time. Sometimes, its best not to have some customers.
  • Todd Ware
    by Todd Ware 2 years ago
    I have heard so many "secret" stories about Gerry. Truly a cat with about 12 lives! Just sorry that his 11th and 12th lives happened to be in a Revo.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Not many people knew his other 10 lives ... supposedly not even some of his students and friends I guess. I bet not many knew his license was suspended by FAA. Not many know about his 6 other fuel starvation incidents and being rescued from the fields by none other than your cousin Todd (when he was his crew member before he became a trike pilot). Ole might have also brought Gerry back a few times from such excursions. All I know for sure, is what his passenger told NTSB about fuel warnings he saw, what his mechanic A&P at the time told me personally about the amount of fuel Gerry took off with and the fact that Gerry directly asked me to lie to NTSB and I clearly told him, not going to happen and then I faced his wrath :).
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Rizzy todd is my friend and of course i cant seem to not butt heads with abid . But this time i have to agree with both of them. Ive said it before and ill say it again. Revo may not be my personal desired trike . But your statistical statement is wrong.these revo crashes have been clearly pilot error. A newbie pilot is only as good as his instruction and only if he ridgedly follows it. Iam sure that revo is a sound machine in the hands of someone disaplined and exsperienced enough to properly and safely fly it. The truth is if we keep good airspeed, altitude ,reachable lzs in proxsimity.good maintenience,flying within are personal envelope and good MC conditions we would be doing alot to prevent tragedys ?
  • Bill  Pilgrim
    by Bill Pilgrim 2 years ago
    Rizzy, it is not the Revo that is the problem, it's not even necessarily newbie pilots. It is pilots that have not transitioned to the high performance wings we have available today. We have had several fatalities in Australia for ( in my opinion) this reason. None have been in a Revo
  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 2 years ago
    Rizzy, I really don't know where to begin with you but must ask who you think you are, some self proclaimed expert that just recently was asking how to pack a wing and how to change a spark plug.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    I'm not going to speculate until the NTSB reports are out. But I will give all of you a couple of FACTS. You can do whatever you want with these FACTS.

    1) Gerry charlebois, Craig Ewing, and Bill Crow all totaled their REVOs in before their final accident.

    2) I refused to train Bill Crow and demanded he sell his aircraft and give up flying for reasons I will not discuss at this time.

    3) John Williams will be glad to tell his story again, but when you are taking photos at 50 feet only to look up and go to wide open throttle for 2 seconds before splashing in that is hardley the fault of the aircraft. In fact he went a bought a brand new REVO after that.

    4) Gerry was flying with an illegally modified SLSA for 12 minutes after he made the modification before his accident.

    5) Craig was flying in IFR and his aircraft was NOT equipped IFR and he was also illegal.

    None of these pilots had a clean history. So all of them had survived previous crashes. and as my Daddy likes to say, if you always do what you always did, you will probably get what you always got.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    And Rizzy as Henry's video shoes Ken having problems at slow speed stalling the wing in a bank, we also know that Adam Scmitt also was at slow speed and more than likely went in the same way. Both were reflex sport 12.5 wings which are very old designs. Did you know that most aircraft including a Cessna 152 will do the exact same thing if you stall it in a turn? If you don't understand what happened in Henrys video YOU NEED TO STOP FLYING or get more instruction.

    As far as people that have never flown something themselves speculating that it has "instability at high speed" that is just jealousy talking.

    And yes Rizzy there have been cases documented of wings being ripped off trikes such as the P+M during a tumble. Trikes cannot take over 10Gs. And there are documented cases of all types of aircraft having their wings ripped off by over stress due to lack of orientation in IFR. Look these things up if you want to learn.
  • Doug Boyle
    by Doug Boyle 2 years ago
    As an aside to #5: IFR legality encompasses 3 very important rules: 1). IFR certified aircraft, 2) IFR rated PILOT, 3) recency requirements. None of these rules were present in this accident.

    Feel free to ask the ever-so-humble Gregg Ludwig how much retraining is involved in keeping our asses alive at 35,000'. A newly-minted pilot thinks he/she knows everything. Add a couple hundred hours and the same pilot will admit to how little he/she knows -- providing they are still alive! Add several thousand hours and they will tell you how you NEVER stop learning.

    This is why there are Very Few old, bold pilots....
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Speaking of spiral fatalities, the last 2 this year have both been in Australia in Airborne trikes. In this case if ANYTHING is clear, it is that the trike did not land the same way as any of the trikes that spiraled in. In hose cases one wing is destroyed. Clearly not the case of Bills accident.

    And witnesses say the engine sputtered and by the looks of the prop I would say it wasn't spinning when he crash landed.

    Now how many of you trike pilots would like to do a dead stick landing into that backyard at 3:30 in the afternoon with all the mechanical turbulence that was probably next to that house. And witnesses say he crashed into a rock. Did you see the video of him circling at what looks like 300 feet?

    So how many 50 hour pilots can loose the engine at 300 feet over a lake and safely out it into a small backyard? I k ow I would HATE to try it myself. Not sure I could do much better... But I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm saying the speculation from the witnesses described this scenario.
  • sandy hoffman
    by sandy hoffman 2 years ago
    Riz your personal attacks against revo/larry are getting old.It is plain to see your anger towards larry is because you cant afford one.Tired of the attacks please go away.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 years ago
    Well said all
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    I think it's ok for Riz yo ask questions. They can be answered. They probably should be answered because in a rather short time without knowing more it does look a bunch of accidents to Revo owners have happened.
    I think the answers given above by Larry are valuable. I knew Craig and I know he tumbled he trike inside a cloud. Larry considered him a friend. People think Craig was experienced but no amount of experience replaces lack of judgment specially if you continue to do that as a pattern. Local FAA FSDO had warned Craig 3 times before about flying in clouds. So they personally caught him doing it 3 times to the best that I know. I think it's important to tell that as it is at this point from keeping people who fly understand that flying is an unforgiving activity. You cannot have an attitude or it will kill you sooner or later.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 2 years ago
    Thank you everyone for your responses. Everything I asked here is something that I heard or learned from discussions with fellow pilots and that is why I asked these questions, because most of it is hearsay, better to hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

    For Gregg Ludwig, Sandy Hoffman and Paul Hamilton's of this world, I have every right to ask questions (irrespective of my expertise level) that are on my mind. You might not think that four accidents, three of them fatal in a year and half is a lot, but many people are talking now. Paul, as always what a valuable input from you, NOT!. I personally would never own a super trike of any manufacturer because I like slower flying machines but I do absolutely love Larry's passion and innovative approach and have acknowledged and appreciated it many times. This Blog has nothing to do with that. The purpose of the blog is to find answers to the deaths and how in the future they can be avoided.

    Thank you Larry for graciously responding to the questions.
  • David Hayes
    by David Hayes 2 years ago
    Most high dollar Trikes have parachute systems that never get used. Seems like a lot of high hour pilots flying in clear conditions, like the accidents in Hawaii never consider pulling the red handle. This seems like a training problem. This option is far under used. It seems that faced with nothing but bad options pilots should be trained when to put the" I'm a great pilot" ego away and just pull the handle. Ask yourself what the outcome would have been in all of the accidents in the past 10 years if the parachute had been used.
  • John Olson
    by John Olson 2 years ago
    Todd Ware, I assume from your first comment that you assume that Gerry, through his typical recklessness, must have run out of gas, leading to his crash. That's what I get anyway. Is that accurate?
    Well if that is so, how does it explain the plume of smoke at the crash scene?
    The manufacturer went to Kauai to help with the NTSB investigation, but so far, well more than a year later, he ain't talking.
    Safety First!
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Scott a BRS is good from only 500' and possibly lower as there are saves like in the UK with the PulseR well below 500'

    I have to agree with David.

    And to Ole, it really stinks that once the NTSB involves an individual in an investigation that all of the evidence, photos, inside information, etc cannot be discussed with the public until the final report is released. So I cannot share anything more than I have above.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Rizzy yes you can ask questions but you need to be careful of whats implied.the only thing i have against larry mednick is that he looks like the kid who beat me up and took my lunch money in high school.
    You apear to me to be apprehensive about flying your trike. You havn,t logged much time in the last few years ,are constantly changing wings but in your blogs you come across as having quite a bit of k owlege. There is a difference between knowlege and exsperence and they should not be confused. One thing ive seen in hang gliding is many want the dream but not all should persue it or should be encouraged. I ll give larry credit with bill here . It was suggested that he sell his trike and larry refused training i think for a valid reason. Rizzy mayby you should concider getting out of triking because it appears to me you are not comfortable with it. But i heard you say you were interested in gyros well beware there be dragons there as well.weather its a revo or a tanarg or airbourne , flying like top gun should be left for the well knowleged and the exsperienced? Larry can i have my lunch money back?
  • Bradley  Waters
    by Bradley Waters 2 years ago
    I am sad the hear that another trike pilot has left us. I cannot comment on the REVO, because I have never seen one in real life. I have however seen the many videos of the REVO flying and have had many discussions with my students on that type of flying. I do not endorse that type of flying at all and you can put on the video "don't try this at home" all you want... these newbies are going to try it and I'm the guy that has to deal with it. So I guess what I am saying is, that not all trike pilots should be flying at 100 mph.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 2 years ago
    What are you talking about White Eagle? Constantly changing wings? My new trike came with a 19 meter wing that i sold and bought a Manta 17. Any how, don't really know how that contributes to the topic, but thanks for trying anyway.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Bradley. Not sure but i think your referring to larrys exstreem vid. In all fairness iexspose myself because i too brought up the point that i didnt think it was in larrys best interest because of him being a manufacturer and the risk of imulating it. But the issue raised here is all the resent crashes have been revos . This leads the reader to think that there is design flaw in the revo. And that is statisticly flawed. For one the pilots fatalitys in austrailia that larry mentioned were friends of mine . They were not flying a revo and both were flying the arrow wing on airbourne trikes. There have been other serious crashes not reported that were not revo.Now for revo and my personal choice its not for me . If i had that kind of money id buy a used pitts or citabria. I like light wing loading and thermals.but as long as the pilot has the skills i dont think the revo has any significant design flaws that cause people to crash and thats where the objection is here? I agree with you that no cfi should endorse low flying around obsticles at high bank turns. If you look back through the blogs for a couple of years you will see i have been outspoken at the risks of this by newbies and advanced pilots
    Heavier faster little wings with e/o rock glide ratios in the hands of murphy my next door niegbor will not always produce the safest results. To be fair to the deck flyers yes even i mr safety know it all likes to fly on the deck once in a while. Up a river with fields to the right or left above tree top level to avoid wires and in large fields where clearly there are no poles and with AOAs well below stall and lots of air speed. I will be always learning.thrill seekers its not all on the deck. Go spend a week with ole and ride the lightning to 17 thousand if something goes wrong you can find some kind of religon .have and excuse to go shopping at wall mart for new shorts throw a chute and live to be in one of his novels.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 2 years ago
    My trike instructor Robert Hendrix told me that he held the record for deploying the BRS at the lowest altitude. If i remember correctly the controls stick for his fixed wing ultralight broke right as he took off. So, i guess what i am saying is maybe it is better to use the BRS if you have otherwise lost control of your aircraft, what do you have to lose at that point?
  • John Olson
    by John Olson 2 years ago
    Okay Larry fine, have it your way. Have it their way. The bureaucraps have put themselves in charge and so the waiting is interminable. What's a life or two meanwhile matter anyway? We ain't bureaucrats so who cares. Good one Larry!
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Well i really dont want to get in to it with you rizzy but iam not the only one here criticing your blog. You didnt like you first trike you have had several e/ os forget about the wing thing .but you do speak and answer to post quite offen as one having authority. And you raise issues about safety manufacturers and types of wings . The last 4 years ive personally invited you to come meet us and your local flying community. You talk the talk but dont walk the walk.Not trying to be mean spirited here rizzy .Do you fly on a reg basis riz. I dont think so. And that could be unsafe as well.If you are taking up passangers i would reconcider. I do my best to practice what i preach not just in blogs but in the air as well.be honest how many hours have you logged lately.really rizzy iam concerned that your k owlege has outgrown you exsperience. Iam saying that it is very clear that the recent accidents and fatalitys can clearly be attributed to PILOT ERROR. So as you put it what roses do you want us to smell? Ive never been the most widely adorned recognized hang glider pilot. And still concider myself intermediate trike pilot. I can say that iam not bold i am old and have launched and landed thousands of times. And the only exspertise i can really rely on is. IAM STILL HERE and i have never hurt myself flying other than a bruse on my thumb in a wang. Rizzy go flying fly with airspeed ,altitude good judgement and as regular as you can you will be doing alot for safety all iam going to say on this subject.
  • Todd Ware
    by Todd Ware 2 years ago
    John Olsen I don't think Gerry ran out of gas THIS TIME. i was referring to the first time Gerry crashed his Revo. As Abid mentioned also. I could only guess about what happened on his fatal crash. He modified his fuel system vent without manufacturer permission. Maybe that modification messed up on him.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    if only the FAA would stop giving low level aerobatic waivers for stunt pilots to perform at shows like Oshkosh. All of those GA pilots have to watch that stuff :-) and every year it seems there is at least one fatality. But it's usually not the performers and usually not someone trying to emulate, but people crashing on landings, takeoffs, weather etc.

    If I start seeing a trend the trike pilots are having mid airs from flying too close to each other in formation or catching their wing tips on the ground from banking low enough to do so I'll pull all of those videos down. But like the gazillion people that attended Oshkosh this year, the vast majority loves watching aircraft maneuver.

    We aren't licensing 16 year olds here. 90+% of trike pilots are over the age of 40. Do we really need to worry about adults this way?

    As I have said many times, the number one killer in trikes is still spiral dives which are usually inadvertent when fatal. And to flip the argument for a second. INSTRUCTORS THAT ONLY TEACH Up to 45 degree banks in dead calm wind are bigger contributors to fatal accidents than my videos.

    Fly within your envelope to reduce risk. Know your envelope not the guys on TV or at Oshkosh.
  • Bryan Tuffnell
    by Bryan Tuffnell 2 years ago
    C'mon guys, Rizzy asked a valid question: does the number of consecutive accidents involving a single brand of trike point to a problem with that trike? And the answer seems to have been given: no, there were individual factors at play, and similar-ish accidents involve other types of trikes elsewhere in the world.

    To carry on from Larry's post above, which I completely agree with: it doesn't seem to be widely recognised that it's quite easy and safe to bank a trike to 90 degrees IF you know how. It's really an intermediate manouvre, and certainly easier that performing consistent, no-nosewheel-bounce landings. Maybe 20% of trike flying is roll. Using pitch and throttle properly is where the real skill in flying is - matching pitch, and to a smaller extent throttle, with roll is where the real skill is in flying.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Ole, if I felt that there was either something dangerous found on the aircraft, I would ground the fleet immediately. If I thought there was an important moral that only this or that accident could illustrate I would be beside myself having to keep quiet. Instead I URGED HENRY AND KEN to share the video that illustrated most trike pilots greatest risk of an accident. And before that I have discussed the spiral by making videos etc until I was blue in the face. Don't you dare acuse me of not sharing important information that may endanger another pilot. I would never do that. There are no big secrets to tell. Only common sense facts will come about from thes final reports. And if some don't have common sense, it's certainly not something you can teach...
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 2 years ago
    White Eagle, i am sorry that i have not been able to attend your invites, it has a lot more to do with my job and promotion at work than anything else. As far upgrading my trike from a two stroke to four is i guess any pilot's dream. And i was lucky to fulfill mine.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    I could start a blog about weather a tanarg is safer than a revo and that would be a valid question.but is it worth it and bear any real fruit. I happen to agree with larrys last comments as well. One thing i like about larry is as a manufacturer he dosnt shy away from speaking here and thats comendable. Its not uncommon for a product developer to say theres is the best. Car dealers do it all the time.pilots can fly low high banks all they want no problemo to me. Safety is relative to the risks we accept period. My personal choice is doing higher than 60 degree banks with altitude . My choice based on my judgement of my own skills. You may not live next to murphy but i do. Hell i bought a chevy and a ford and they both didnt run. Revo, rev tanarg ext they are awesome. I prefer bird wings when they come out iam going to get me a pair (white).
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    For the record I have never used the word BEST to the best of my knowledge. Paul recently did and Abid before him ironically. Nothing is more irritating than someone telling someone else that their __________ is better than yours. Whether its your TV, your house,etc.

    People often say to me, "so the REVO is the best" and my answer is always the same. It is the most expensive, most sophisticated trike on the market with options others don't offer and nothing else flies like a REVO.

    Now if anyone has a problem with that statement we can argue all day long. But Please don't assume that in all the mix of blogs that I ever said the REVO is the best.
  • Richard Pierce
    by Richard Pierce 2 years ago
    Started flying in 1972, in excess of 1400 hours - 1200 of them in trikes - I have been thru quite a bit - While the Revo is an impressive machine, it is not for the faint of heart, it is a high performance bird - I test flew one with Larry in Sebring in 2014 - I did not know Bill personally - or anything about his experience - but the bird I flew,......which had impressive performance, was not forgiving at all - it struck me as easy to make a mistake, which would happen fast
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Yup riz id love to have your 4stroke on a really good litely loaded wing. I find it hard to make the fly ins as well and when i come home iam as broke as i can be. Kids family work make it tough i know. But if you have the dream riz get that trike out and fly it more. Before you end up like me a fat toothless old fart with bad knees.60 will come up pretty fast and kids will be gone.ill keep flying even if i have to geta hoyer lift to get into the dam thing. Didnt mean to be hard on you but i think you could of worded your blog a bit differently. Ill be careful as well i just came back to the dark side and i just want to exist here.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Larry if you drew that i said you said yours was the best forgive me. I was refering to the comments by others in promoting. Not attacking you at all. At bonners ferry i got to see my first revo up close (henrys) pretty awesome. NOW honest did you beat up any hippy kids in high school and take there lunch money? Just jokin
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Richard, since I'm obviously feeling chatty. Bill Crow recently flew his REVO from Florida to New Hampshire 1000+ miles completely solo with no more than like 50 hours total time including training and maybe 20 hours since his last major crash where he totaled his trike while landing at 10:30 AM in reported 25 MPH winds when he was only signed off for under <5 MPH before 9:00 AM by me. The FAA cited him for reckless behavior and I wound up getting a "709 check ride from the FAA as a result. I later found out he was flying big X countries with another trike pilot up in his area. There were other things that surfaced that I won't discuss out of privacy and respect for the deceased. I was almost sleepless as Bill Crow navigated just ahead of the tropical storm coming from the south last week. He left here with low ceilings at 11:30 to start his journey, but returned unable to continue north after 6 miles. Then took off mid day with weather building, luckily one of the local trike pilots showed him how to get weather on his Foreflight minutes before he left, otherwise he had planned on using the phone in his pocket for radar. When Bill Crow arrived in New Hampshire without incident another local trike pilot said to me "just because he made it, doesn't make it right" I cannot stress enough how, in my opinion, low hour trike pilots should stay in the pattern and blast off touch N gos until they have 100 hours and 500 landings or at least fly close to the airport over big green fields! this gives them skill, confidence, control to get down in a hurry if weather changes and in the event of an engine out, it should be no event. Let's face it, had Bill Crow bought a 15 meter wing brand "X" , he probably wouldn't have flown it 1000+ miles home and probably wouldn't have been up at 3:00 in the afternoon flying low level over the beach. The plane he bought afforded him to do things he couldn't do with the part 103 he originally purchased, but never flew and later sold. So with capability comes responsibility. Do you give a teenager the keys to a new 500 HP Corvette? probably not a good idea. Are some grown men 16 year old teenagers? As I mentioned above I had no part in preparing him for his Sport pilot license and refused to train him. Many of you received emails and phone calls regarding his discontent for me...
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Richard, more than likely had you spent more than a few minutes flying in the REVO which probably had a competition 11 wing you would start to adjust to it. You can't expect to jump in a REVO after getting used to something completely different and feel completely at home. That is why there is transition training. Any time you step up from a Cessna to a Cirrus go from a cub to a Robinson you need to learn to not bang the controls, you need to learn to fly with your fingers, not your arms. There is a difference! nothing flies like a REVO be it good or bad, nothing flies like a REVO.

    In any case we are yet to have (and I'm not saying it can't happen) loss of control causing an accident due to its performance or handling. New pilots know no difference and experienced pilots usually get transition training.

    Take any Cessna pilot and put them in an Vans RV and see if they don't say the same thing you just said about the REVO.

    We have tons of students soloing the REVO as their first aircraft and many big commercial flight schools use the REVO as their trainer. The REVO is a great first trike, but as others mention there are pros and cons the big wing/little engine VS. the big engine/little wing combinations.
  • Bryan Tuffnell
    by Bryan Tuffnell 2 years ago
    The first person to fly across the entire USA was, I believe, Scotsman Colin MacKinnon, in an ancient two-stroke Pegasus that flew 40 mph. If I remember correctly he began with 50 hours' experience. I don't know anything about Bill's case. If you're made of the right stuff, low hours or the 'wrong' trike shouldn't inhibit you. If you're made of the wrong stuff, more experience is simply more exposure to hazards.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Bryan, just because they made it doesn't make it right.

    Bottom line, a 50 hour trike pilot probably cannot land in a gust front they may encounter. a 50 hour trike pilot probably cannot spot land a dead stick in a tiny area since it's not all friendly terrain on a big Country.

    Last year Amy flew solo for the first time 2500 miles to and from Oshkosh. We hit the worst weather I have ever flown in just outside of Chicago with no warning and had to divert into class D. Had Amy had only 50 hours experience and no class D endorsement, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have made it. I was in another trike right next to her getting my teeth kicked in. At one point on final approach I said to myself, "get with it Larry, you can actually wreck this trike!" Amy greased in her landing and all was well. But Amy had made the trip 4 times prior and had a LOT of EXPERIENCE and even more now.

    You can watch all of my videos, but the riskiest flying I do is my annual flight to Oshkosh each year. The risk of weather and no where good to land in an engine out situation add risk I cannot fully control.

    This year my 19 hour student who was yet to solo flew all the way up with me in the back seat. I also did this trip with some of my other students. Great experience while limiting the risk some with me in the back seat.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Henry told me that flying the revo is different. One thing he said is there is no counter correction just back to nuetral .that is a good quality and not a bad quality . But if you are not use to it or dont know it could be a problem off the ground.that is where aditional training comes in.
  • Bryan Tuffnell
    by Bryan Tuffnell 2 years ago
    Larry, part of having the 'right stuff' is recognising that you should be on the ground when the gust front comes through. A 50 hour pilot should be WELL aware of that... and regardless of experience, as you said, if you're flying over unlandable terrain you're in a situation that cannot be fully controlled no matter who you are or what your experience is.

    I'm not suggesting anyone should fly major x-c's with fifty hours... just that when it comes to safety, the right attitude is more important than big hours. Sensible decision making is the greatest asset a pilot can have.

    The worst weather you've ever flown in... with NO warning??? Weather changes fast, but again regardless of experience you should fly with a Plan B.
  • Ed Cooper
    by Ed Cooper 2 years ago
    Thanks for making this post Rizzy. You elicited valuable comments that gives some insight as to what probably caused some of these accidents. This information probably would not have been offered publicly had it not been for your post. Thanks also to the members who finially offered their insight.
  • Amy Saunders
    by Amy Saunders 2 years ago
    I have to jump in here for a minute and make a correction to Larry's last post. I don't know if it is his memory is slipping because of age, 40, or his immensive amount of flights ;-) My first roundtrip solo cross country to OshKosh was in "Zilla" in 2013 after a student decided to fly to Osh as well. There was a considerable amount of discussion whether or not I had the experience despite my 250 additional hours in a airplane. The weather typically at that time of year is very unforgiving with storms and wind. Larry believed I had the skill but I did not have a lot of hours flying trikes in big winds. He did quite a bit of additional training with me and off we went without incident for the entire trip both ways. However, I can honestly say I really didn't relax and enjoy the trip and was challenged with a few different situations, but not wind. The next year I flew "Black Beast" solo from Lansing, IL along the Chicago coastline and into OshKosh and then back to Lansing, IL after Osh. THIS is the bad weather that Larry was referencing. Truthfully, I was really scared. I had never experienced such violently sharp turbulence and for an extended period of time, over an hour. I did everything Larry taught me and knew I could land even though the switching crosswind was strong and winds were 25kts gusting to 32kts on the ground. I never understood the saying "I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was flying than being in the air wishing I was on the ground." I told Wes after that landing "My feet are on the ground and I'll be damned if you get me to go up again!" That's when I found out that there was a sigmet, due to a tornado, 20 miles from where we landed! This showed up after we had checked weather and all looked clear. If I had flown in these conditions the year before, especially without a chute or good landing options, I would have failed. This year I flew "Zilla 2" roundtrip from Tampa, FL and had an amazing time. I enjoyed the various challenges of airports changes due to weather and landings in gusty crosswinds. Experiencing formation flying with a crop duster along a river, flying through the mountains, flying the Chicago coastline in calm air, etc. Having said all this, I recognize the real life challenges that CAN happen on a long cross country not to mention cockpit management and also feel that a low time pilot is taking an EXTREME risk with making a decision to take this on. The statement "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" is all to true.
  • Todd Ware
    by Todd Ware 2 years ago
    Doug Boyle, great comment about the more experience we have, the more we realize there is to learn (I guess the same thing could be said about dealing with women :-)
    It's true. I often remind myself, "I'm never too good of a pilot to make a stupid mistake".

    My first response from seeing Bills munched trike photo was anger. . . that he didn't keep up his airspeed and came down vertically so hard. . . . and sadness for everyone associated with him.
    But now that some objectivity settles in I must admit that I could easily put my trike in like that, given the right scenario, and some help from Murphys law. It's usually a series of bad choices, adding up, with an unexpected environmental or mechanical surprise thrown it.
    Like: Morning flight after a night with too much wine, aggravated at someone, and do a poor pre-flight. Then deciding to practice pylon turns low over water, then hitting 2 geese, while glancing down to see that an ex-girlfriend texted me. etc. etc.
    Sure, I could panic while trying to avoid hitting a dock, and munch it down the same way!

    Will have to train for such a scenario, ahead of time. Actually I did go to fly the next morning after a birthday party, with a very slight hangover. Sat at the hanger, realized the sub-par condition and shut the hanger door.
    May alarm bells go off in our heads if any bad condition/decision starts to multiply BEFORE it happens.
  • Todd Ware
    by Todd Ware 2 years ago
    Good story and comments Amy. And Bryan, Larry and everyone . . . good input. Larry, good point about not stopping videos and low altitude maneuvers at air shows etc etc. Its all true. After seeing you do many one wheel landings, I still have not tried one yet, just because you do (maybe because of a bumpy runway?) although that's not very dangerous.
    Only little kids copy others to learn. Most of us really know what we are/or not ready for.

    Thanks Rizzy for starting it up.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    I think finding out why the engine sputtered and quit would reveal a lot in this particular case. I am sure NTSB will send in an engine expert like Eric Tucker or someone from Lockwood to verify engine is fine and to check fuel level and carb bowls. Right now my prayers and sympathy is with Bill's family and friends. I was concerned with Bill flying the cross country mainly because of judgment and decision making not skill but somehow he made it back there last Thursday. RIP Bill.
  • Bryan Tuffnell
    by Bryan Tuffnell 2 years ago
    Hey Amy, I guess we all recognise the value in having run the gauntlet and it sounds as though you did. I guess most of us had been in the situation of getting a hiding, feeling out of our depth and wishing we'd stayed home. Now don't get me wrong, I'm NOT advocating that low hours pilots take on big challenges that they may not have the skills to cope with. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a big dollop of common sense is worth many hours in the front seat, and some high hours pilots have been killed for making decisions that a conservative, low hours pilot may have shunned. Maybe a GOOD 50-hour pilot will make the call to stay clear of cloud... or say "hey - it's gonna be nasty today, so I'll stay put"... maybe they've done their homework and know how to read clouds and anticipate weather and know what local patterns are, and have spoken to those with local knowledge and read forecasts, and maybe they'll take the steps to discover there's a sigmet for nearby weather before they take off, all of which can be done without gathering airtime... maybe they'll turn back early when they see cloud descending/ evidence of strong winds/ too rough/ not feeling up to it today... maybe they'll be more inclined to reach the half-way point and call for a trailer for the rest of the journey. And maybe they make those calls in conditions when more experienced pilots should also make the same call but push through instead...

    A big part of so many outdoor pursuits is knowing when to go to the pub. "Just because you can doesn't mean you should' applies to every one of us - we're only as good as the moment we're in. The inside of a cloud doesn't care how many hours we have.
  • Amy Saunders
    by Amy Saunders 2 years ago
    Doug, your comment about "the more experience we have, the more we realize there is to learn" is completely true for life as well as flying. I have had many, what I call, "cheap lessons" made by different circumstances and some stupid choices that could have ended quite badly. I say a big thank you for each and every one of these both personally learned and learned from others experiences. One thing that I am greatly appreciative of is the company that I keep. I am surrounded by pilots that have mad skills and experience. We discuss every incident, crash and folly that we come across. We are constantly striving to make this sport safer and better not only through sharing of experiences and education, but also evolving the trikes that we fly. Rizzy, I appreciate your inquiries and recognize that you and many do not have sounding boards like I do. However, ALL incidents and accidents should be discussed. Not just Revos .... just saying ;-)
  • Amy Saunders
    by Amy Saunders 2 years ago
    Bryan, you are absolutely right! I will, anytime, take a strong aeronautical decision maker with low hours that errors on the safe side than a high time and experienced pilot that errors on the risky side. Recognizing and flying within your own envelope is very important. Not sure, go to the pub and fly another day. I always tell people that ask me if I want to fly with them that I have 2 rules: I either know how to fly the aircraft competently myself or I know the skills and ADM of the pilot and they are sound. I enjoy flying WAY to much to end it to soon especially for something that could have been avoided. We all know the wonderful reasons we are drawn to the skies just keep in mind everything is a calculated risk and constant vigilance is required.
  • John Glynn
    by John Glynn 2 years ago
    So sad to hear of Bill Crow's passing. Do not want to lose any trike pilots. Not enough pilots for us to share the air with already. I fly because I love to fly. I am not able to give any specific reason. Flying for me is like breathing. I need to do it. I enjoy it. Very wise words, "better to be on the ground wishing you are in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground." Fill up your toolboxes of knowledge in life with everything you can about preflighting, weather, flying skills, landing techniques, and get the best transition training availble. Most importantly remember this is supposed to be for fun. I enjoy flying low and slow. Love soaring, spot landing, and navigating into and out of new airports. Fly the absolutly best equipement you can possibly afford, and fly with a ballistic parachute. I treat high performance trikes such as the Revo with the same respect I do a parachute. Just because the machine affords you more control, climb, performance, don't put yourself into situations where you may need to use it. I tell everyone I do not know the color of my parachute (but if I use it someday it will be my new favorite color). Just because you have a 4 stroke 912 I believe it is a good idea to keep a landing area that you are able to land in within gliding distance. All this talk of long flights XC made me want to share with you my bucket list dream. I always wanted to fly from Florida to my home in Wisconsin in a Revo. Now after actually flying in a Revo my new bucket list is to make a trip down and back as well. A great most capable aircraft can be an improvement in your personal flight safety only if you do not use up all the "extra" control, speed, capability etc. If I fly in the same conditions that I am comforatble now, over flight leg lengths that are within my demonstrated ability, I know that I can tell my wife, kids, and family that I am flying the safest way I know how. That is a promise I make to my wife every flight and more importantly to my self. I hope I can fly with all of you someday (especially before the snow flies up here in Wisconsin.) Rest in peace Bill and please all of you fly safe and have fun not fear.
  • Neil Scoble
    by Neil Scoble 2 years ago
    I would like to add something that most of us seem to be missing here. It seems to me that there is a culture of low flying over unforgiving terrain. We don't have a lot of trike pilots in New Zealand and I fly out of an airport where it is mostly GA and three axis microlight, I'm sure that if these guys see me flying like some of the videos I see posted on this site that they would tell me in no uncertain terms that I should moderate my behaviour. I don't know about the regulations in the US but in NZ it is illegal to fly below 500' AGL unless in a designated Low Flying Zone and only then with an instructors approval to open the Low Flying Zone. I don't see any problem with Larry's flying and videos done in a controlled environment, I enjoy watching them. As for influencing other pilots surely as adults we should be able to make our own informed judgments without being unduly influenced by others. If not perhaps we are not mature enough to be a pilot in control of an aircraft!
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    John i agree with most of your comment. But the last part not fear i disagree. Fear is an intrigal part of my safety envelope and always has been. When building my envelope in hang gliding i soon observed that it was those who had no fear whom become fatalitys at a faster rate. There are two types of fear uncontrolled and controled. Uncontrolled fear is very dangerous but controlled fear can and will be your friend.Notice that amy admits on her way through nasty weather that she admits her fear but also admits that she controled it and finished the flight. In the 80s and 90s corperations used the logo no fear on shirts and caps to youth who wanted notority in high risk sports.controlled fear keeps you looking for traffic. Looking for plan b and lzs prevents you from venturing close to anvil heads. Doing a wire launch on a lava cliff in a very strong lift band if you have no fear something is wrong. Fear will enter your flying at some point make sure its controlled. One makes you cautious and think. (Controlled fear) two make you make bad choices( uncontrolled fear,and no fear) . Its not how your going to react when things are all good its how your going to react and the choices you make when the unexspected happens. And that can happen to any one of us at any time. Just a thought that has seved me well in many dangerous activitys?
  • John Glynn
    by John Glynn 2 years ago
    I agree with you about fear. Controlled fear to me is like respect. I too began in hang gliding. I respect the risks of action sports. Uncontolled fear sure takes the fun out of things.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Very good john i learned alot and never enough in hang gliding. The phyc aspects are amazing.having to jump off cliffs into airspeed really can make you take a deep organizing look at your mental processes. With flying everthing is in the basic raw and relates to who iam in life. I dont look at triking much differently.i just cant get my head around flying to wrap music its gotta be denver and the eagle and the hawk. I dont want to imulate others.but i do want to learn from their mistakes.why because i accept that iam quite capable of errors.one great privelege comes with wings and i respect it to the core. FREEDOM.
  • Bryan Tuffnell
    by Bryan Tuffnell 2 years ago
    Hey Neil... as a fellow Kiwi I can state that there's a difference depending which side of the Strait you live. Here there is very much a culture of flying very low, particularly over the beach but also in other areas... and upside down. My nickname (Tussock) comes from that. There's a tacit understanding that you exhibit a degree of prudence and don't fly over people and give horses a wide berth, almost anything else is fair game. Trikers are to some extent that 'bad boys' in the local scene, but some of the 3 axis pilots also choose the wild ride from time to time.

    I think we make a distinction between 'legal' and 'reasonable'. A number of us have a background in other forms of aviation and other outdoor pursuits - in my case, mountaineering has played a big part in my life, and in alpine climbing you often aim to come as close to the line that divides possible and impossible without killing yourself. The goal is to cut it close. And I'll go out on a limb here and say that to some extent I don't have a problem with someone choosing to fly like that. If you want to read of dangerous flying, any of Brian Milton's books will do, or David Sykes', or think of Guy Delage's Atlantic crossing, or Eppo Neuman's, or Richard Meredith-Hardy's UK to Capetown flight, or... Sometimes someone wants to reach for something big, for a moment in their life that is so intense that they are prepared to risk all their future happiness the gratification of that experience. Larry has touched on that in the much more moderate context of flying to Oshkosh - you can't be prepared for every eventuality for the duration of that flight (he was referring to an engine out over unlandable terrain).

    Okay, so that risk is low. We all know there's a difference between a conscious decision to assume a risk and to unwittingly fly dangerously through lack of skill or judgement. But I think the distinction needs to be made. I think the bottom line has been said by Neil and Larry: we're adults and free to choose our own influences and make our own decisions. If some choose to draw a line in the sand that's a little farther out than the rest of us, such is their entitlement. If others wish to be more certain of coming at the end of the day it behooves them to ensure that they really know how to fly.

    I have a strong feeling that there are a group of pilots thatboat about in trikes, with low bank angles and bar in neutral for the vast majority of the time. And of course that's absolutely fine; there's no need to fly like Svetlana Kapanina in a trike. But it isn't necessarily equipping you with the skills to cope when the unexpected happens. Do we all know that if you need to extend your glide after an engine out, you need to fly quite a bit faster than near-stall? How much height do you lose in a 180 degree turn with no power? At what height and distance does the 'impossible turn" turn become possible? How much speed can be gained in a power-off, slipping turn, and how much height can be saved in a power-off, coordinated turn? How precise are your power-off landings? What is best takeoff technique for a short field, and what speed gives you steepest climb if you need to cross an obstacle? What speed gives the fastest climb rate, which is different to climb angle? If you have to hiff a trike hard to avoid a collision, can you do so? How do you initiate a 60 degree bank turn? And the one that's come up on this site time and time again, how do you roll level from a high g turn? Etc etc.

    Some folks will say the above is unnecessary and that rote learning how to avoid bad situations is the path to safety. Me, I'd feel safest flying with someone who can answer the above in their flying. You obviously don't need a whole catalogue of skills to fly around the block or even around the world, but it's not the everyday that catches us out. And learning to truly FLY our trikes is for many of us the greatest joy in flying.

    There's a quote from a respected local pilot in our clubrooms: "Cowardice keeps me safe." I strongly disagree. Knowing how to really handle our aircraft and understanding the environment in which we operate is what matters.
  • Herman Eldering
    by Herman Eldering 2 years ago
    What an interesting series of reflections. I was a Revo pilot and loved my flying, even had the honour of being in the back with Larry when he took the trouble to personally fine tune my Revo wing in Australia at no cost. And had the joy of taking Amy up in the back of my Red Revo. They have both always exhibited the utmost professionalism in everything they do.
    Where I think the fault lays is that the relevant authorities take so much time to release any official information on the investigation results. While any matters of law always take a long time to come to any conclusion there really ought to be a preliminary report on known facts that without prejudice and with legal immunity report news to trike pilots that they can consider and reflect on their own practices.
    I have flown my Revo low and fast, high and slow and all manner in between and other than some unexpected wind gusts have never had any what I would term dangerous moments. I spent considerable time finding the nuances of the Revo flight envelope so that I felt completely in control. When taking passengers up the extra obligations that entailed ensured that every flight was predictable and safe for them as causing them to have fear would reflect poorly on my piloting skills.
    I have seen many trike pilots doing things I would never do and promptly avoided flying in their company as their risk profile did not suit mine.
    There is inherent risk in flying, we have an obligation to provide as much information as possible to every one so that their flying skills can be improved.
    I have now sold my Revo for the simple reason my flying hours were reducing each year as my retirement travelling was taking me far and wide. But I miss it terribly.....
  • Richard Pierce
    by Richard Pierce 2 years ago
    Larry - thanks for your explanation - I think you are correct about the wing I flew - and of course, any new machine requires transition - I consider myself a seasoned pilot and I knew that machine demands respect, they all do, I have jumped in and flown all kinds of trikes but that one gave me a moment of pause - perhaps a more docile wing would have given me a different impression - I think it is a phenomenal machine, I am just not ready to recommend it for a newbie - Your description of his flight history tells me alot and kind of confirms my suspicions.
  • Richard Pierce
    by Richard Pierce 2 years ago
    If anyone knows the family - this happened in my neighborhood - I would like to organize a Trike based, Missing Man Formation for the services - Any info would be appreciated
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Richard, I fully agree. Not only do we not sell the Competition 11 to new pilots, we have and will continue to deny purchase of that wing to customers without enough experience. In fact Glade Montgomery was denied the purchase of the 11 meter when he bought his REVO. I flew with him last year and I would sell him an 11 today with no questions asked.

    Back when I started flying trikes I had a Kemeries Tucan. I wasn't comfortable flying past 9:00 Am until I had 100 hours. If I would have done a xcountry and wound up in bad conditions I would have been way safer in a REVO with any of the wings had I learned to fly one.

    My point is if you fly outside your envelope in a soaring trike or a REVO regardless of you have 10 hours or 1000 hours you are simply outside your envelope. It sounds like you flying the REVO at that moment were outside your envelope. You recognizing this is what makes you a good pilot.

    The Point you made saying not to start with a REVO is like saying you shouldn't learn to fly a helicopter until you have a thousand hours in a Cessna. Well... People learn Heli all the time with no prior experience And if you think a seasoned fixed wing pilot feels comfortable at the controls of a Robinson Heli you would be mistaken. Even a 30,000 hour fixed wing pilot is at whitts ends in forward flight in a Heli where all the controls work exactly that same as a plane basically. And that pilot may say this is so advanced.... So unforgiving etc. But student solo times are plenty low for Heli and those that learn to fly Heli know no difference. Those that learn to fly a REVO know no difference.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 2 years ago
    Thank you everybody for sharing your views. I learned a lot of new facts, the biggest one was factors surrounding Craig's accident. I guess what I took away from this discussion is that super trikes require serious transition training since they are a breed of their own.

    I am very thankful to industry leaders, local pilots as well as our trike friends from as far as New Zealand and Australia for pitching in. And along with these industry leaders a big thanks goes to Larry for calmly & kindly responding to the blog opinions.

    As indicated in the blog, the purpose of this discussion was to find ideas and answers to fatalities that myself along with many others had no clue as what caused them. And nothing more than that.

    Thanks again :D
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 years ago
    So Rizwan, what roses have you smelled. Please explain.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 2 years ago
    Paul the dealer, let's not ruin the spirit of excellent discussion we had on an important topic. I didn't want to discuss it any further. And I also know that your question here is not with good intentions. You have yet to make any positive contribution on this blog. But let me serve to your curiosity anyway.

    I am surprised that you write so many blogs trying to promote your products and agendas but you have failed to discuss this many accidents on the trike you sell and claim "the best money can buy". In fact when Ole asked you a few days ago in a Blog about Gerry's accident, you just swept it under the rug.

    And, I just read on Alltrikes that the European Revo dealer had a Revo trike accident, so now it is five accidents in a year and a half? That is a lot (especially if you factor it against the numbers of Revos sold in that time frame).

    What I personally learned is that the super trike you sell is quiet different machine than many other trikes on the market, it requires a lot of transition training. So at this point, it almost feels that more than the manufacturer, maybe instructors are also contributing to these accidents by not properly transitioning the students.

    But Paul the dealer, I hope, next time you sell your ridiculously over priced (by at least $40,000) trike to a new pilot. I hope you can explain to them about the accidents, their causes and how you are going to make sure the safety of your students and also what utility do people get by paying you 40,000 more than other super trikes.

    Have you smelled enough roses now? And Paul the dealer, please don't waste my time, unless you have any positive contribution for this blog. Thank you
  • Bill  Pilgrim
    by Bill Pilgrim 2 years ago
    How many Revos where sold in that period Rizzy?
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    The REVO pilot in Poland was NOT signed off for solo flight in the REVO. but he flew it anyway without knowing how to land properly and when he had a problem damaging the wing it was in 35 KT winds. So he probably would have been dead had he been flying your trike Rizzy. You should really change the name of your offensive blog.

    And while you continue to post showing a complete lack of knowledge, understanding of what quality costs, and apparently the difference in price, which is not $40K like for like, you continue to twist and churn the facts.

    People are crashing every type of trike there is. During the course of this blog an Airborne 582 w Streak 2B went in a heck of a lot harder then the one in Poland in zero wind. So it's one thing to discuss accidents, it's another for you to attack a brand. Heck, when only 2 PulsR trikes existed, one flew into IMC and pulled the BRS seconds before impact. And the only PulsR in the US also wrecked on takeoff. Put your calculator to that Rizzy, that ought to inspire a new blog! But realistically the PulsR just happened to be what the pilots were flying when they either made a really stupid decision or pulled a dumb dumb. Stop with the conspiracy theories!

    I hate to tell you how many people, and I mean nice people that emailed me and called me with not so nice things to say regarding you "attacking" them online. You probably don't realize how you are coming off. But im telling you, people Including me are really offended by ignorant things written like "time to Smell the Roses".

    And in the end it sounds like you have one agenda. To hurt Paul Hamilton. One of the greatest contributors to our sport and you, the guy that sounds like he won't even be in the sport next year is out to do damage to his business.

    Now what a real stand up guy would have done in response to Pauls question (which wasn't worded nice because he and many just don't seem to like you very much) is say, I guess my assumption was wrong. Because if there was anything I can take from this blog, it is that these cases were not caused by an aircraft defect.

    Better luck making more friends in the next sport you take up.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 years ago
    Rizwan,
    Simple well intended question hoping for some closure to your attacks, with the answer I hoped was going to be "I learned allot and come to find out, these accidents are pilot error and not the fault of any specific brand".

    Rizwan, Please take your anger elsewhere. It is getting tiring and not productive.

    For me, there was no sense contributing to this particular blog because everyone has else has done a great job of putting their time and effort into it. I try and contribute when I can add something productive So my first comment still stands "well said all except Rizzy".

    Yes I sell Revos and other brands of trikes (Delta Jet, North Wing, Airborne, Air Creation and P&H) as well as assist customers who want to buy cheap used trikes. Whatever they want and fits them best. It turns out people want Revos because it is a great trike. It is the trike I choose for my operation.

    Was it easy to swallow the price of a Revo, NO. But for me, it is the "Best trike" (if you can afford it) for many reasons and worth every penny.

    When I went to buy a trike, I used all me expertise to look, check out, research etc... and I chose the Revo for my operation for the reasons listed here:

    http://www.trikepilot.com/magazine/read/why-i-purchased-a-new-trike-and-decided-on-a-revo_887.html

    It has been worth every penny because of its flight, quality and service. Not the right fit for all as described in a number of blogs:

    http://www.trikepilot.com/magazine/read/does-everyone-need-an-expensive-high-power-fast-trike_943.html

    http://www.trikepilot.com/magazine/read/three-revos-in-reno-for-one-year-what-are-the-results_969.html

    Rizwan, As far as your inappropriate accusation about me sweeping Gerry's accident in Hawaii under the carpet, I spent allot of time and I feel a good job of trying to explain what happened here:.

    http://www.trikepilot.com/magazine/read/what-do-we-need-to-know-what-can-we-learn-from-gerrys-accident-in-hawaii_921.html

    It is amazing with all your attacks that you could not figure out , as most trike accidents, that Gerry's was pilot error. Pretty simple.

    As far as wasting time, think about how much time and effort people have put into this blog trying to explain to you these accidents are most likely pilot error. It is sad that you have not learned that and keep up your attacks.

    Again Rizzy, please turn your anger somewhere else.
  • Charles Moore
    by Charles Moore 2 years ago
    Interesting read. Learned a little more about trikes and a lot about people. My only addition to the blog post is never think you are done learning.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Iam going to weigh in here as one who likes the tanarg and i cant afford one of those iether. Larry came out with the modestly priced rev it apears to me to be a very well built rugged trike that has great flying chatacteristics? Brovo the usa used to dominate manufacturing in the 80s. Not the case now if it wasnt for people like kameron belvins or larry mednick we would be spending alot of moola getting something imported. And how about those they employ i think they would be greatfull. Rizwan i think you have to smell the roses here bud? You may not like PH i dont know ive heard good things and ive heard bad things and that is said about everyone including myself its the nature of gossip which i hate.i,ll just say that i have never met PH or larry.
    Ok smell the roses rizzy. When one is doing statistics analisis you cannot ignore obvious facts. 1. Not all the recent fatallitys have been in revos. How about cliffs up here in polson. And a few more that have happened that are not fatalitys but not reported. Now if you take per capita of trikes flying their is a larger number of other trikes sold and been on the market for a longer period.Rizzy go back and look, when 912s first came out their were fatalitys . When trikes first came out evolving from hang gliders there were fatalitys.
    Larry does not misrepresent that the revo requires adittional training. Rizzy i have researched hang glider accidents for a long time way back when i worked for larry nueman at electra flyer and american aircraft corp. I can say that i have been onsene of many ga aircraft accidents.I was there with the faa investigaters when ben abbruzo from the double eagle transatlantic baloon crossing got killed in his c-411. Being a flight line crew chief ive handled many crashcarts. I am also a trained firefighter.Now if you want to talk the gee bee racer was a flawed design. Killed allmost everyone that flew it. It had almost no static margine .in a turn would fly backwards .
    Riz smelling the roses is offensive particularly to those on here that have lost friends. If you would have started a blog saying is there a corrilation between recent crashes and the revo statisticly the answers would have the same conclusion .

    Pilot made altercations illiegaly to aircraft
    pilot ignored placard weight limitations
    pilot ignored warnings from airport director flying into imc.
    pilot violated instructions from cfi
    pilot was flying with student with no training bars
    pilot flying with insufficent airspeed in density ai
    pilot soloed himself without cfi endorsement

    These are sad and the only roses to smell is pilot error
    the thing to learn from this
    listen to your instructor and follow it
    beggining,intermediate,and advanced pilot syndrom
    look it up
  • Thomas Nielsen
    by Thomas Nielsen 2 years ago
    In a strange way I am glad Rizzy started the blog, because it yielded some insights I was missing in order to fully comprehend some of the accidents in question. But I dislike the title of the blog as well as the underlying agenda which were - not to truly understand causes - but to further a narrative that the Revo by design is failure prone, oh and lets not forget overpriced too.

    You Rizzy, have received thoughtful, comprehensive and earnest answers that are well above the caliber of your own disingenuous intent.

    -------------------------

    Todd ware said something interesting in a Revo review of recent - something others have picked up on too - that a new hybrid category perhaps were in order for the Revo (and other high performance trikes present and future I'd assume)

    Just like fixed wings, have their complex endorsement for gear and variable pitch, perhaps there should be some differentiation with trikes since they span such a large envelope of performance. At any rate, sound airmanship and captaincy is something that was not demonstrated in the accidents or at least not in prior incidences. By the end of the day - such attributes are at the core of flight safety well before a specific model and the cost of it.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Dont mean to comment so much but i might add that there is another side of the sustical coin that has not been investigated very much . What about comments from actual revo owners who have alot of exspieriece in trikes who have sufficent training in the revo. Where does peter de vechio ,henry imagwa. My instructor scott johnson flys a revo whom i know tp be a talented pilot weigh in.Now we may draw some conclusions from my friend henrys spiral video.Now henry i know has not done this involentarily . He was not pic.Was it an error on henrys part letting ken fly front pic.(no offence ment henry) After all he is a cfi now.ken had over 400 hrs in a trike was it a revo i dont know. Does the accident reflect just training in the revo, or the overall training in general. Or does accidents reflect more are blantent egotistical ignorance to following rules.
    I in the past have had issue with tps being revo dominated but that is more when i get jumped on for having a difference of opinion and feel censored.people may not like everything i say and sometimes iam corrected great. But i must say that just the very nature of a social site is marketing. We promote our sport. Larry please contribute, paul hamilton please contribute, kameron , clyde poser, airbourne tanarg good thing no one is stopping them from contributing
    Rizwan if trained owners of revos step in here and report on flying their revo in a blog about revo crashes thats not going to offend you as advertising is it? I Would say its a important part of the eqauation.Yes rizzy in the past i have critizised heavey little wing trikes its true.let me clarify its not where i want to see the industry go. (And that is just me) . I like more of say technology is headed woth the solairus that kameron at north wing builds. But kameron also builds wings for larry absolutly a good bizzness move by both of them and i told kameron that.they support each other awesome how does that benifit me. Kameron has more money investing in r/d for where his love is hang gliding and soaring and producing a true soaring trike
    the solairus.
    OPPs iam advertising rizzy can we do that here or on alltrikes.My opinnion we better? Better is two in a field for one can pick up the other! Support each other and the industry.As long as pilots ignore there trainning , fly out of there limitations we will have fatalitys.if we all did everything right we would still have fatalitys just a lot less. Thank you
  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 2 years ago
    Thomas Neilsen- see 61.327 (b) for training and endorsement requirements for trikes based on Vh performance (applicable to Revo and other trikes)
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 2 years ago
    I'm glad that Rizzy started this blog too, and am depressed at how many people chose to interpret his comments as ill-informed attacks rather than as inelegantly phrased questions.

    It's hard to improve safety without asking the question of "does a particular model of aircaft / wing have an abnormally high accident rate." And "pilot error" can be a cop-out - pilots make errors all the time and an aircraft that is more tolerant of these errors is going to be safer.

    Shooting the messenger may make people feel better but it rarely makes the world a better place.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Jake no ones shooting the messanger.rizzy can blog all he wants i have no problem with that. This site has had a history of ugly viscious contention. Now ph or larry has not spoken to me much but i dont really care. IT is the underlaying tone that we all know rizzy is doing that i think is the objection. I think by some things rizzy has said here about larry or pablo i think are definatly contetious and could be
    done in a much less sensitive manner. Plus the blog is not supported by the obvious to most knowlegable pilots who can read accident reports. When you say something like time to smell the roses well that is sugestive that well all these revo crashes are do to the revo being dangerous and rizzy knew it all along.If riz is so against exspensive trikes he should be an advocate for barnstormers there is a lot of nicely priced trikes there. And guess what some of those byers are getting killed.Iam not trying to be mean to rizzy but the truth is he is a very low time pilot who in fact hasnt flown much and exspresses a lot of knowlege without exsperience.He has complained in the past about a few bumps. If i start a blog i would like it to be practicle. If someone has learned something here great hurray but all this is nothing new . If i were ph or larry i could say yes i would be offended. Find the facts first then start a blog suggesting sublimitly.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Riz, even though I fly P&M trikes, but based on the known facts, I still would not hesitate for a second to take my kids flying in a Revo and I am sure it will be as fun as always. I think the Revo trike is very safe and as safe as any other well respected manufactured Light Sport, and not a contributor to the accidents in question. Not sure that helps answer your question.

    Also, I know personally many of the manufacturers, including those involved with the Revo brand, and I know they all take safety very seriously and it is #1 priority.

    I think that generalizing does not really help the cause, or pilots that sadly lost their life in an accident and the rest of us. It is best to look at each individual instance and the set of facts and circumstances. Most times is more than one issue that contributed to the accident.

    The price of the trike has nothing to do with the accidents so I am not sure what was that even brought in this conversation, unless there was another agenda in mind which is not respectful or fair to those involved.

    Last but not least, yes, high performance aircraft need transition training. That is true for pretty much all aviation. It is even in the Sport Pilot book as pointed out earlier .. based on the speed of the aircraft. All the trikes I fly are within that category and they are all safe and fine. I just need to understand better what flying a 100mph differs from flying at 45mph. It does make a difference. Try blasting your way through heavy turbulence in at trike at 100+ mph (above maneuver speed) and you will see what I mean. So is best to transition and discuss the differences with an experienced instructor.

    I am very sad and my condolences to family and those close to the pilots involved in these sad events.

    Regards
    Tony C
  • Drew Pawlak
    by Drew Pawlak 2 years ago
    I have been holding back, reading, internalizing but now feel compelled to comment. This thread makes me both angry and sad at the same time.
    First I am sad that yet another trike pilot has lost his life. I’ve only known Bill briefly and spoke to him on the phone a few weeks before his tragic passing. No matter the reason for this tragic loss, it’s still a loss for all of us and the sport. This loss invites scrutiny, questions and further regulation where perhaps none is needed and sets up hurdles for those looking for a reason not to participate. More on this later.
    Secondly, it makes me sad this incredibly SMALL community of trike pilots and manufacturers is so fragmented, adversarial and untrusting of one another. We should be supporting one another, the manufacturers and each other. It’s hard enough to get a trike, get training and make a go of this sport as it is. As a recent “graduate” I know all too well the challenges people face in getting their sport pilot ticket. I am happy we have the choices we have now, the access but we need more.
    Now…I will ask you all for a favor…could we please stop with the “dick measuring” contest about who has the better trike!? ALL trikes are AWESOME and my choice for fulfillment of a lifelong endeavor. I don’t care what kind of trike you fly. In fact – I’d welcome ANY TRIKE in my area to go flying with…just one! We need more trikes and trike pilots. The fact that there is choice out there is a good thing. From my perspective, all modern trikes are equivalent regarding SAFETY when flown WITHIN their design limits. So let’s stop acting like boys and grow up please. Ladies – thanks for adding a level of maturity that is so sorely needed.
    And for sake of comparison, as far as I can tell, for the last 100 years people have been killing themselves in all sorts of cars doing stupid stuff. Doesn’t matter if it’s a Toyota or a Ferrari. I don’t see the masses lashing out at Ferrari, McLarren, Porsche or Bugatti for making their marvelous machines. Bad decisions lead to bad outcomes. Owning a $250K car won’t protect you any better than a $25K car. Same holds true for trikes. Unless there is an obvious flaw or failure in the machine, the manufacturer cannot be held responsible for the poor choices of the operator. If you think you want that – don’t complain when all the trike manufacturers go away because they can’t stay in business anymore.
    Next on my beef list – for those of you out there that “want to bring the fun back” or fly irresponsibly or beyond your abilities, do us all a favor and please leave. If you want to modify your trike illegally, do stupid stuff like fly through clouds without IFR skills and fly in conditions KNOWINGLY beyond your abilities…PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD…STOP, sell your trike to a grown up and learn to play the piano. As much as I might scoff at some regulations, there are reasons they exist – something happened before that caused that regulation to exist. The dead don’t have to live with the consequences of their actions. Their families, friends and we do… well except if you consider not living anymore a “consequence”. Larry has already commented on the consequences of Bill’s poor decision making after his first accident and how it affected him and subsequently me.
    I recognize the desire and need to learn from these recent accidents. I too have questions and I WANT answers sooner than later. However, we live in a world of rules and if we want Larry and others to stay in business they need to abide by the rules the NTSB sets forth. Which means he can’t comment until the final report comes out. He isn’t hiding something and there is no need for conspiracy theories. Ever hear of Occam’s Razor – the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. So can we please back off and let the process run its course – slow as it is? Regardless, with such a small community most of the facts gets shared anyway as demonstrated through this blog. Enough of us know each other, our good and bad habits that when the “accident” happens many simply say – “it was bound to happen”. I can’t believe how many times in this thread that was stated. This shocks me and I refer you to my previous point about stupid behaviors. For the record – it’s not an accident when something bad happens after knowingly doing something illegal.
    Since it was asked – I will comment on flying a Revo. Today I hit 98 hours TT and just under 400 landings in 11 months of flying. This is my first trike and the only trike I have ever flown. I think it is a dream to fly and not difficult at all. I can’t compare it to anything else save for a NW Scout I used for my practical. I fly in and prefer calm conditions but am now learning to appreciate textured air. As Larry mentioned – pretty much all my training was in late morning or early afternoon crappy conditions – good training technique, in my opinion. I know what textured air is. In all my time, I have only flown as PIC ONE TIME mid-afternoon to once again experience midday turbulence. I expect I will do that more often as my skills progress…but for now I build time, experience and explore my little part of the world enjoying the freedom of flight.
    On this topic – I have watched every video Larry put out. I have trained with Larry. I fly “Larry’s Trike – the Revo”. I enjoy watching the videos and demonstrations and one day would love to have the skill to pull off what he does. But here is the thing, and there is no getting around this fact: I am not Larry. I am not a 6000+ hour experienced pilot, test pilot, CFI, etc. I watch and enjoy but don’t emulate because I know my limits. I know the Revo in experienced hands can fly in 20-30MPH winds safely. But not my hands. If you think after watching these videos you can emulate these skills…please check your ego, sell your trike and move on to something a little more in line with your mental age – I have a Fisher Price Power Wheels I’m willing to let go for the right price.
    Lastly – in anticipation of the question “Why fly a Revo?” I will answer this way: Because I can. I love the way the Revo looks. I love the way it handles. As an engineer, I APPRECIATE the design, hardware and quality of the parts that make it up even if they don’t impact the flight characteristics in any way. So for me the additional cost is something I was willing to pay because it has value to me. In addition I like that I am flying an American built trike. Yes there is some pride in this but more importantly I can work with a local manufacturer in local language and local support. Each person derives value in their own way. Just because one individual doesn’t value something doesn’t preclude another from doing so. Now if I couldn’t afford my Revo – I would be happy flying a DJ2 or a Monsoon or a Tanarg or a Buggy – ANYTHING as long as I could fly a TRIKE. And to drive home the point, while I can appreciate a Porsche Cayman GTS (my dream ride) I am fully happy in my little VW Jetta TDI.
    I don’t know why I took the time to write this response. I’m not the boss nor an authority figure. Doing so has now opened the door for criticism and condemnation. However I am willing to do this trying to be a contributing member of a community that I feel can be so great and fills a hole in my life. I’ve built great relationships with so many new people – some I’ve never actually met in person yet! Perhaps the fact that I am young (41), a husband, a son, a father to 4 great kids, is why I fly and behave the way that I do. My loss would negatively impact the lives of those dearest to me. As the saying goes there are no old bold pilots. So while to some I might be boring, to those that matter I hope to be around when I am so old I need someone to wipe my ass.
    I am sorry if what I wrote comes off as condescending, critical or controversial. It is not intended to offend anyone in particular. It is hard in any written piece to convey intent, mood or emotion – even with Emoticons!  It is an expression of a feeling and an opinion based on observation. Perhaps if everyone backs away from the ledge for a few minutes and thinks and acts with positive intent, this community will grow and prosper. Thanks for reading.

    Sincerely,
    Drew Pawlak
  • Joe Hockman
    by Joe Hockman 2 years ago
    I have been following this thread but did not previously comment but will now. I happen to agree completely with Jake's comment yesterday. I too am glad Riz started this discussion. I certainly learned some new information regarding the various accidents and of course more about people. Larry shared some new "facts" regarding each of these accidents. Lets not forget that final accident reports have not been released for a few of these accidents. I am disappointed, however, to see all the mudslinging going on but from my perspective this is not at all new on TPS. It appears to me there is too much attempt at declaring motives and intent from other posters and effort to discredit others. Again not new here because of the mix of personalities present.

    I personally do not believe the Revo is inherently dangerous or any other high end trike where performance is defined by speed capabilities. In the hands of a very capable pilot that understands the performance envelope, understands the risks of playing at the edges of that envelope, and exercises good judgement in risk management, ADM, etc it can be as safe as any trike. I happen to believe that the margins for safety may be a bit thinner and less forgiving to certain types of pilot errors (relative to other trikes) but those kinds of errors will not generally occur with properly transitioned pilots.

    I am still puzzled by the title though. I was not sure which roses I should be smelling and why right now was the best time to find those roses. So yes Riz, I think a more appropriate title should have been used.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Drew, Joe, I am very happy you commented and your comments are actually very well taken. The point of having this blog(s) is so we can share our opinions and views without being afraid or worry of being criticized.

    I will encourage others that seem to want to "posses" this public blog and believe somewhat their opinion carry higher weight .. to stop, and respect all and everyone opinion. Learn from them as well.

    I want to hear from ALL not just from few - so often I just don;t even read because I hear from the same.. I may as well call them directly and ask! What is the point ...

    I really like your views and please always feel free and welcome because it is all of us that can make this site better... just a few makes is unusable. If you get wrongly criticized, it is those that do, the ones that need to re-evaluate and perhaps go do something more productive with their times.

    I read all the postings here and learn a bit from each and I am grateful that a group of people with common passion can share views and opinions. So often I learn a lot more than I feel I can contribute ... even from those perhaps even with a bit less experience than me in flying ... but a heck of a lot more experience in life and business and all.

    Regards
    TC
  • Jan Ferreira
    by Jan Ferreira 2 years ago
    Officially changing "Time to Smell the Roses" to Let's Talk Trike. I can only guess what Rizzy wanted to accomplish with a title like that but the discussions that followed was good to set the record straight. Keep the comments coming.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 years ago
    Tony,

    Personally I don't feel as though I have anything of value to add. I think Drew did a fantastic job conveying what I'm assuming most are thinking. Besides, honestly with so little experience, I still don't feel like my opinion matters much anyways and rightfully so, so I tend to read more than I post.

    All I can say from what I've heard/read about this unfortunate accident is, it seems to be pointing towards bad ADM. Again....that's just an educated guess. If that is the case though, it's a sad and tragic end that could have been avoided.

    Best,

    leo
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Since Riz also opened a similar thread in alltrikes.com blog, I also replied there to his questions. Here is my reply in alltrikes.com so as to keep my opinions within the scope of the conversation:

    As I posted in alltrikes.com
    "Riz, your questions are valid but the tone that you chose to present the questions is a bit disturbing and sounds a bit bias or with another intended agenda. That is what it sounds to me personally. And the way you reply to Paul... well, Riz, that sounded more personal attack than trying to find facts and answers. Sorry to tell you that but I tell you as I see it.

    Also, to generalize all accidents in one ... in my opinion, that is not the best way to find answers. Each accident will be review based on its individual facts and set of circumstances, pilots experience and decisions. That is what will bring more answers. So if you truly searching for answers, take the know facts more serious and look at each accident individually.

    I did post my opinion in the thread in trikepilot social as well."
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Actually looking at each individual accident and seeing a pattern can divulge defects whether in design or in training curriculums. An example would be that for CH-601's wings coming off in flight killing people 7 times and grounding the whole fleet by FAA finding out that their engineering although done by Chris Heinz who is a Ph.D aeronautical engineer originally from Europe, was wrong and structurally weak. FAA only allowed them to fly again once they agreed to a very difficult and involved bulletin that added structural elements to the carry through structure. However, this is only determined after looking at and analyzing all the facts of each individual accident.
    To be honest the pattern I see from Revo accidents recently is that some customers probably should not have been customers. Revo is a high performance trike and should not be considered the starting trike for each and every person. It does require proper and serious transition training that should not be taken lightly. If people have learned to fly trikes and have gotten use to certain techniques that may not be appropriate techniques those will be much more apparent and exaggerated in the Revo and they don't always show up right away but only in certain attitudes and scenarios and that can result in very rapidly deteriorating serious condition. Hence the requirement to transition train seriously.

    Just because you have the money is no reason to decide to fly a high performance aircraft. In my experience in teaching people to fly trikes some of the dumbest decisions are made by those with too much money. They by definition are more self confident than they really deserve to be when it comes to an activity like flying. Lack of humility (plenty of attitude) comes naturally to these people. Hence its easy to see how the price of the trike attracts more of these customers with these negative attitudes as talked about in instructor and pilot training manuals. These are personality traits that are negative as far as flying is concerned.

    The other personality is arrogant and risk taking type. Some of the Hawaii accidents were related to this trait and also the accident in Michigan. Like I said sometimes its better not to have some customers. Those were time bombs waiting to explode. I knew that from day one. In fact I was quite upset that we sold the trike to Gerry but we did not know enough at first but it became obvious very shortly afterwards. I was out of it when Craig got the trike and dealership. He in my opinion at the time I was there was too immature as a pilot to be flying a Revo. He supposedly did get better but the risky behavior apparently continued and the bomb exploded eventually. Looks like the Polish dealership and accident of of similar trait although I was out of the business at that time also so did not have direct dealing with the dealer. Some people who watch Larry's videos think they can fly like that. I have news for you. 98% of the trike pilots do not fly like Larry and don't need to fly like that to enjoy immensely this wonderful activity. Use common sense. Your life is in your own hands.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    I should also note on record my opinion that some of us who think the speed of the trike has anything to do with it being unsafe are not on the correct path. First, Revo is not that fast. Its not faster than P&M QuikR and not even faster than Delta Jet with Cheval wing and none of them have had fatal accidents in a row. There is actually no connection between speed and these accidents. Some people think that the sink rate of the Revo and these fast trikes is high. This is utter rubbish telling me you have never flown them. Revo's minimum sink rate at idle at proper speed is 500 feet.min just like many other 60 mph trikes. Delta Jet's min sink rate is even lower at 450 feet/min because its lighter and same for P&M QuikR. I have flown all three. The glide ratio of these trikes is actually MUCH better than your typical slow big wing trikes. They are generally higher than 9:1 glide ratio. So the only thing that I think is good negative against Revo one can come up with is its heavier so its approach speed is a bit faster on landing. That has to do with its weight not speed. P&M and Delta Jet are also faster trikes but they can approach at slower speed because of less weight. However when flying one up on the Revo like in last accident, the trike is obviously not as heavy as even P&M with two people. The Revo's new wings are lighter handling and fast roll rate. That certainly is different and for some require getting used to. That comes down to training. As much as that is a good thing, its also a bad thing in the hands of someone not ready to take charge of that. Take proper transition training to get used to that feel of very light handling. I made Cheval 12 light and smooth but not as high roll rate and not as light as Revo wing "on purpose". It is a calculated decision I made through my own analysis of what an average pilot is.
  • Drew Pawlak
    by Drew Pawlak 2 years ago
    Tony - thank you for the affirmation and support. It means a lot to us new guys. Leo - your perspective counts as much as mine or anyone else's. If nothing else, the newest guys bring fresh perspective and ask the questions that help us all reconsider our positions.

    Abid - well said. I originally included commentary similar to this but decided to take it out. While we still await the final results of the reports, the traits preceding the bad behaviors were clearly visible. Money does not equal aptitude or the respect for the sport. Quite the contrary it might be a root cause of some of the problems we see. Perhaps, I like so many others, scraped together what we could to afford what we each have and so we cherish it all the more. I can't afford a mistake financially. When trikes are disposable pleasures, the image of invincibility due to trike capability and lack of humility come into play - they result in a strange brew that can kill. Why else would a low hour STUDENT pilot take a Revo flying in 25 mph winds outside of his permitted limitations? I still CANNOT FATHOM the thought process behind such an act...something just isn't right here.

    Again back to the auto example...how many videos are out on the internet of young drivers being handed the keys to pricey performance cars that wreck them on their very day of ownership? Money doesn't buy skill and age does not equate to maturity.

    One last point I failed to make in my earlier post. Responsibility. In this world we are all (me included) too quick to try and shift blame onto someone or something else. Just look at all the lawsuits in the news. Shortly after posting I came across a nice video of a fellow flying his trike literally a few feet above a river in Virginia. It is a nice video and the conditions were great. Now if I recall from the CFRs (CFIs keep me honest here) that he was legal in that he can go to ground level so long as he posed no risk to people, property or animals. (Yes - I know there is also a clause in there about maintaining an altitude that should the power plant fail, safe landing can be made but these two tend to contradict one another). However a single burble in the engine and in the water he goes. Just like John Williams - who by the way very honestly and graciously told his story. He took responsibility and I sincerely admire him for doing just that. Now John lived to tell the tale. Many don't. I have no issue with people having fun in their bird of choice so long as they are legal. If you aren't legal and make a bad call, then it is the PIC that must take responsibility. Unfortunately, the dead tell no tales and they have accepted the ultimate responsibility and paid with their lives.

    Lastly - I'm one of the 98% that don't fly like Larry and I'm having the time of my life. I am sharing this sport with so many now and enjoying every moment. Something I hope to do for a very very long time and hopefully with each and every one of you. Just over a century ago, flying for everyone on the planet was just a dream. 112 years later how many are called Pilot and get to do what we do...we are the few. Fly safe and have fun and get others to join us. It's wonderful when you get to leave the surface of the planet for a little while. :-)
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 2 years ago
    Thanks everyone Jake, Joe, William, Drew, Leo, Jan, Abid, Larry, Tony and many others I forgot to mention for your valuable input and suggestions. I also want to thank pilots who encouraged and supported me in their emails regarding this blog. I have also changed the title of this blog at your request and the new title is "A study in recent trike accidents".

    Having said that I have to be honest that I find very less respect for people like Gregg Ludwig and Paul Hamilton when they act like bullies and discourage discussion and ridicule me for asking important questions, Paul's comments were not a help (and haven't been in a while) and Gregg said & I quote,

    "Rizzy, I really don't know where to begin with you but must ask who you think you are, some self proclaimed expert that just recently was asking how to pack a wing and how to change a spark plug."

    Some of you may see them as your leaders and have had positive experiences with them, I however see them as arrogant and disrespectful bullies. My opinion of them could change depending on how they treat us (novices) going forward.

    As I indicated in the blog, the only purpose of this blog was to find answers for accidents, the same questions that when brought up in the past were swept under the rug by the people in the know. We as pilots need to know what happened, what caused it, what was learned from it and what was done to fix it. Our safety depends on it. I, also think the answers can even help the manufacturers and dealers, because if (God forbid) the accidents keep on happening with some consistency, it may expose them to lawsuits, so it is better that we find the answers now and fix anything and make the sport safer.

    I dedicate this blog to Bill Crow and his memory. I wrote this blog after I heard of him passing away.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Abid iam not being confrontational here so let me get that straight. And i may be misinterpreting what you said but i just dont get your statement.Now iam not sugesting the revo or tanarg or fast little wings are unsafe. But seriously dude you are defying physics.If i have my choice of an engine out in severe sink in a big wing lightly loaded soaring trike which stalls at 16 mph and i have to land within 60 ft to avoid rocks compared to a fast heavy little wing that without power comes down fast and needs some room to land at 50 ill make you a bet whos got the best chance of safety. Please exsplain or am i misconscrewing what your saying?
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 years ago
    Yes asking the questions and getting answers is important and I agree as all do. However, trying to place blame on the Revo design is simply not an appropriate way to do this. Many industry leaders were offended. Others did a great job of expressing this in a more diplomatic way. This is a good lesson.

    Rizzy, you have recently called me on the phone to ask my advice making decisions on the purchase of a used trike. I took the time and provided you this help and you thanked me. However, I still get these personal attacks. I do not understand.

    WOW. I asked simple well intended question hoping to get the answer
    "I learned allot and come to find out, these accidents are pilot error and not the fault of any specific brand".

    To accuse me that my question was not of good intentions. THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE. I am offended that this assumption was made. COMPLETLY WRONG. It was for good intentions to get your perspective as to what you have learned. Well..... It is your reaction to that well intended question that tells an important story.

    Let's move on.

    As I hope everyone agrees, lets band together, support each other. We need to do this rather than fragment ourselves. Drew did a great job to describe. If I did anything to offend anybody I sincerely apologize, I am sorry. Please get over it and move on. Rizwan, if you have issues with me or what I do please give me a call at 775 772 8232 so we can resolve these. You have called me before, please do it again if I can answer any questions. Please, ut let's stop this here on this site right now. It is not good for any one.

    From here on out let's move forward in a positive way. Let's support each other. Let's turn over a new leaf. Let's be a united community from this moment on. Let this be a new era in triking.

    Sincerely,
    Paul Hamilton
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Hi
    I am not saying that if you have to land in an engine out emergency that a slower stalling trike will not afford you more chances of surviving and being safer in general. I am saying is that these trikes stall at 38 mph or less just like many ultralight trikes except perhaps the Revo. P&M could not release a trike that did not meet UL definition in Europe. Revo is heavier and due to the weight it does stall at a higher speed and approaches a bit faster
    However no 2 seat trike made by a factor your there stalls at 16 mph. That's hang glider speeds. Most 2 seat trikes even ones with single surface wings stall around 30 mph calibrated airspeed. Note I said calibrated not indicated. Most double surface wing 2 seat trikes stall between 35 to 40 mph calibrated airspeed.
    Lots of these higher performance models have Rotax 912 engines and to be frank they do not have engine outs as frequently as 2 stroke engines. Most of Revo fatalities did not consist of having engine outs, nor did the P&M fatalities in Hawaii with Steve Sprague etc. this latest one with Bill in the Revo may be with engine stopped, I am not sure. We will have to see. Usually as a new pilot flying one of these machines I would not be flying low over water with limited landing spots. I have had to land a Revo in a plowed field in low light conditions in France in 2011 because in front of me was a wall of IMC weather and sun was starting to set so I decided to do a precautionary landing. I did crack the fiberglass on one wheel pant due to the large uneven field terrain.

    In a real emergency in an engine out i'd wish for a Gyroplane. Zero roll landing and 90 knots cruise and eats turbulence. You have to fly accordingly to what you fly. Fly in areas where landing in an emergency gives you chance of good survival. I wouldn't worry about the machine in an emergency. I'd just care about saving my own skin. Machines can be fixed.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    When i was in Australia, one of the guys had an MTO and his runway was in a spot with mountains and trees everywhere. At the time I went up for a fly and was disillusioned that if we had an engine out the ability to go to 0 mph and drop it in the trees would almost be just a wild story to tell. Well 6 months later he had an engine failure and put it in the trees. They found him about 50 feet from the wreck with his cell phone in his hand the next day. He didn't make it,,,

    So the moral of my story is that if and when we fly with no where to go we should have a plan. A plan to fly high enough to pull the BRS that THANK GOD our trikes can be equipped with. A plan to ditch in the water or just prey your motor keeps running because you will probably be injured or killed if it quits or preferably a plan to land in "that nice big green field" this is so important that it is ON THE PRACTICAL EXAM! The FAA wants us to be ready for an emergency landing and practice this before getting our lisence.

    Acting like you can Land on an unsuitable areas as a plan of action is just fooling yourself. And that is where flying my REV I know I might be able to land that trike in a baseball diamond about as easy as I can land the REVO in a football field. Can a new pilot choose these options? Heck no. And I don't use thes as my plan of action either. Now add blusterymid day air and my approach speed needed for either must be increased and unless I afford myself a strong head wind on the ground and I land directly into it I can no longer use these rediculously small areas to land. And if you try to come in super slow in blustery conditions, now your vertical descent impact is the one that may kill you and not crashing into something forward.

    So there you have it even a 0 MPH "stall" is not enough to save you in an engine out situation if you don't have a SUITABLE place to land. A BRS will give you that 0 MPH slow speed flight and control your descent rate. I hate flying without one. It saved the PulseR and may have saved Craig had he had one. Bill had one, but as mentioned before might as well not have had one when loosing the engine well below 500 feet.

    I have had 26 engine outs to date. Abid was in my back seat for the first one. I am totally sold on the 912 iS personally for safety that I believe it proves. However it still won't fix running out of gas or things going through the prop or oil filters or hoses coming loose during flight. So bottom line is HAVE A PLAN when flying and when you are putting yourself in a situation with no out, try and limit that time. If you fly 90% of the time with no where to go in the event of an engine out, guess where you will probably be when your engine quits? Having both a REV with a 28 stall and a REVO with a 43 MPH stall I have MORE landing options with the REV, but YOU ONLY NEED ONE SPOT TO LAND EITHER. So you either have an out or you don't.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Are you all aware of the Just Super STOL that had engine failure after also being videod from a spectator on their boat several weeks ago? His stall is 17 MPH And he is an EXPERT PILOT. I'm guessing he had no good options. He did however walk away from the crash. That planes landing gear and tires probably saved his life. But look at the plane... I'll post a photo of you haven't seen it.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Larry STOL and bush airplanes are always made quite light. The original bush plane (still probably the most popular bush plane), the Super Cub (Piper PA-18, stopped production by Piper in 1991) is amazingly engineered to be as light as it possibly can be while carrying the useful load and handling the G forces. When I worked on American Legend Cub Super Cub copy (AL-18) project for certification, it was extremely important to do the test properly and carefully because if you did the test wrong, it would break the airplane very easily. However, the plane is a proven bush plane and a workhorse as we all know. If one thing was out of place on its structure or in how we loaded it to simulate the structural tests, it would fall apart like a twig. That is probably the same technique used in Just and Fox type of aircraft. They crumble around the cockpit. Beyond a certain point though, there is no point, the occupant could not handle the shock loads anyway.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    In the subject of higher performance as it relates to "more danger" ... which in my opinion is totally wrong opinion, but many trike pilots wrongly seem to be convinced as that to be the case .... I posted this in alltrikes.com and would share here as well. A couple of notes regarding this post:

    1) This is not about comparing products or manufacturers AT ALL ... (SO PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT GO THERE... serves no purpose) ... This is about comparing performance characteristics in 2 models I have own and flown many hours (so I am fully familiar with them). I could use a Pegasus Quantum vs P&M QUIKR as well for comparison ... but the Airborne Wizard (and the fact that the Wizard is a single surface large and slow wing) serves the purpose best.

    2) Possibly we want to make this on its own subject so we can discuss in much more detail as is not really 100% relevant to this conversation, although there is some relevance as pilots here have questioned the high performance as a possible contributor in some of these accidents.

    Anyways ... this is what I posted regarding trike performance subject and I am happy to share in this site as well. It would be also interesting to find a definition as to what makes the trike high performance... perhaps Cruise & Vne speeds is one of them, but likely there is more to that.

    >>>>
    Tony Castillo 24 hours ago
    The increased performance on trikes do not make it more dangerous at all, on the contrary, makes them safer when used for the purpose intended, and more capable. Us pilots, not knowing how to manage increased performance ... that could be problems.

    For example, improved performance means we can now go places that we would not go before... I can fly faster and longer and still very safe in my P&M 912 QuikR... that I could not even attempt in my Airborne 582 Wizard Wing ... that does not make my P&M with higher performance less safe! that could only be less safe if of course I am flying in terrain that I used to not fly before... but that is the nature of flying, we manage risk and make decisions - that is not the aircraft job.. it is the pilot's job.

    If you believe that you are safer because your trike does not allow you to wonder past 6 miles radius of your place of departure then practical aviation would have never existed if you were in charge of advancements!

    If you believe higher aircraft performance is not safe you should reconsider your flying career, or please call me and we can discuss in detail. I will also be happy to take you for a flight in a High Performance trike and go over the characteristics in detail ... and show you why I believe it can be actually safer.

    Flying performance is key to advance in directions that some of us want to go. For me, higher performance and endurance is key to x-country flying which I enjoy. So, I have no problem with improvements in design that make our high performance trikes today allow for exploring. Even the Wright Brothers strived to increase performance of their very first flying machines... discussion about performance decreasing safety is non sense! Tell that to the corporate guys flying their corporate jets!

    Get trained and fly what you can afford and brings you joy ... 35mph cruise or 100mph cruise ... either is fine to reach your personal goal.

    With all respect
    Tony C
    >>>>>
  • Todd Ware
    by Todd Ware 2 years ago
    One thing that I’ve not seen mentioned here is the notion that, “Correlation does not imply causation”.

    I think Abid hit closer to a true causation/correlation being the ego-minds effect of having lots of money to spend and needing the hottest brand of anything. The mental dynamics of some who feel entitled to the best. I feel this is closer to the hitting the nail on the head of the Revo accidents, more than other determiners.

    A similar study would be an analysis of those who wrap hot, new, red corvettes around telephone poles compared to those who don’t wrap VW Buses around similar poles. There is a physical/mechanical prowess component, but probably a larger psychological, customer stereotype, hazard that exists. Alluding to the fact that some red Corvette owners simply should not own red Corvettes, while reflecting no actual problem with red corvettes as a machine.

    This is only rephrasing what others have mentioned.

    Earlier I made mention of the Revo belonging in a new hybrid category. That observation had nothing to do with a category of increased hazard or difficulty. Rather a new category, more towards a “real” aircraft. Less like a kite, more like a standard aircraft.
    In my experience of flying 4 different Revos through their evolution, this last one, the "Bumble Bee" felt like the kind of aircraft I want as I grow older. It was more comfortable, easier to fly, softer in turbulence, less spastic, and more masculine feeling (towards a basically feminine liquid/air environment) than any trike I've flown, by far.

    This is not some immature hot red Corvette, it is more like a high end, newly refined BMW IS. It’s an always evolving, freakin masterpiece trike.
    It is, what it is . . . and is not the trike for everyone.

    As for Rizwans “$40,000 overpriced” whine.
    Disrespect of value and greatness is unbecoming. Like your ongoing dis of Paul Hamilton. . . a guy with a large body of good work in this industry. Needless!
    No one gets to their own greatness, by belittling the greatness of others.
    Be great yourself. Its the hardest road, less traveled.

    I recently asked for the price of a new fully optioned Revo. It was $8,000 less than I thought it would be. Yes, it is expensive for a trike, but no, it is very cheap for an aircraft of similar quality and refinements. You don’t even have to fly one to know it, you can just look at it closely, or touch it. Definitely achieving “real” plane-hood, for less bucks. You don’t even have to fly it to witness the value. Just look it over closely. The value is obvious.

    This thread of posts (for the most part) is a testament to the brilliant folks that are associated with our sport.
    Drew Pawlak your recent long post was one of the most lucid, objective (and humorous) writings that I’ve read. You have awesome writing/thinking/synthesizing skills.
    Abid, always great to hear the informative facts of trike aviation. . . a well communicated knowledge base.
    Larry, your endurance and real world brilliance (and your restraint) is admirable. Everyones else’s inputs have been insightful and contributory to the whole.
    Applauding everyones time spent here, to increase ALL of our knowledge and safety.

    A lot of effort, care, and greatness to be heard here.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    So, Todd, basically the SAME individual driving an inexpensive light green Ford Fiesta be less likely to wrap it around a tree than if s(he) was driving an expensive hot red Corvette. I can understand that.... not that it applies at all to my ex-wife as she could for sure wrap ANY car of ANY color and value into a light post.

    I know this for a fact, I can pass red Corvettes in the highway all day long with a Ford Fiesta... actually I pass a lot of hot Porches, Corvettes, Ferrari and even the occasional Lamborghini quite often with my Jeep ... and just going 10 mph over the speed limit. The biggest danger for me is me staring at their cars and not paying attention to the road!

    So, attitude and responsibility may have more to do with some matters than performance. Have I read about that before...?? Ohh yeap, in pretty much all my study guides for becoming a pilot.
  • Todd Ware
    by Todd Ware 2 years ago
    Yep! . . . and a different kind of person would buy a fiesta compared to the 'Vette. And that categoric difference in purchasers may display a causation correlation more than the machine. (as your ex-wife proved :-)
    Oh Tony, I forgot to credit you above too, for your posts on this thread. Have enjoyed your comments, much.
  • Henry Trikelife
    by Henry Trikelife 2 years ago
    I think I have to post my words because Rizzy pointing my spiral dive case as part of this blog. I flew my Tanarg with Reflex Sports wing 15 hours at least before I put Ken in the front seat. I didn't experienced any unsafe characteristics, including power off stall. The wing stalls around 47mph and it was very mild and very easy to recover. As we explained in the video made by Paul, Larry, Ken, Wes and me, the spiral dive was induced by the pilot error not the wing. In my opinion, the most of the wings exists will stall in the same situation of "slowest turn with the bar out the compression tube with max weight. Rizzy, I urge you to watch the video again, if you don't understand. I noticed you posted the exact same subject on Alltrikes.com. You stated that the reason you posted there is "I seriously suspect that I will get any honest responses at Trikepilot Social". Is that only me that think every posted answers here is "honest response" ?
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Abid thank you for clarifying .what i meant is exactly what you said above and i couldnt agree with you more.
    larry what i like about what you said is although you can choose the option of maybe trying to hang your wing up in the trees. That a brs is a better choice and flying with a plan b is your best option.

    Abid larry tony i dont disagree with any of you..i recieve your points. Every machine has its advantages and disadvantages as with different wings. A revo or a tanarg would be my choice for xc .And alot of power can get you out of a lot doo doo as well a soaring trike can buy you time finding a lz. But can be hard to get out of cloud suck or get on the ground.

    Todd if i was going to hit a power pole and i had my choice of vehicles like a vett or a fiesta i would take the mack truck?

    So let me put it this way. 99.999 % of accidents are pilot error. No matter what iam flying if iam making an uncontrolled accent into a stationary obsticles i personally would like to have the slowest verticle and foward speed possable.

    Someone had mentioned iam not sure who . But in the case of bill by the looks of the wreckage he went in fast and hard possably from a paniced stall.he mau have surrvived if he flew it in to the best possable point. This was my point that also understanding emotion and managing your fear and being able to make sound choices in a highly stress situation. Take henrys reaction as soon as he realized the spiral . The way i count it he had maybe 3 seconds from disaster he used 1/10 th of a second to react and imput maybe the rest of that second to get the wing flying. I dont think i could done it better.

    Pablo well said i dont have anything against anyone.I respect peoples opinions although i might challenge some i also respect being challenged. dosnt mean i would be comfortable with abid in the back seat of my trike, probably a horrible back seat driver. JUST KIDDING ABID,!##!!.
    I am all for being the big happy disfunctional familly we are.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    If Bill really had an engine out and if like witnesses said he was coming down to land on the beach but turned away seeing many people on the beach, I would have literally landed the trike in the water right next to the beach to try and be in as shallow water as I could be and braced myself because the trike would flip as soon as it would touch water. The control bar would try and crush into your chest. May be brace it with your feet and legs and let the trike structure take all the impact around you. Don't try and save the machine.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    So, we do not knwo if Bill had an engine out? I assumed he did and basically just had no good place to land, but upon reading the NTSB preliminary ... Seems that a couple of people menetioned engine trouble, but others mentioned the engine was running... No much info there. The preliminary investigation did not really find an obvious indication in the engine itself, fuel bowls were full, ther was fuel in the tank, and there was continuity in the engine parts... Larry mentioned that the shape of the blade .. The one blade not broken, seems to indicate that the engine was not running.

    So, do we know at all if this unfortunate accident was the ressult of an engine out?
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Tony: do you have a link to the NTSB report? Can you post. I doubted that he ran out of fuel. He was only 45 minutes from his home base. If the engine was stopped then it was't possibly due to fuel starvation. Bill had a bad accident in that machine that would require a full engine inspection for damage to the crankshaft and gearbox. I don't know if that was done. That is a possibility but report mentioning continuity in engine circuit would make that unlikely also.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Here is the Preliminary NTSB Report:
    "14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
    Accident occurred Saturday, September 05, 2015 in Laconia, NH
    Aircraft: EVOLUTION AIRCRAFT INC REVO, registration: N2264X
    Injuries: 1 Fatal.
    This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators may not have traveled in support of this investigation and used data provided by various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.

    On September 5, 2015, about 1540 eastern daylight time, a special-light-sport, weight-shift-control Evolution Aircraft Revo, N2264X, was substantially damaged when it impacted the backyard of a residence, following a loss of control while circling a nearby beach at low altitude in Laconia, New Hampshire. The sport pilot was fatally injured. The airplane was registered to and operated by a private individual as a personal flight conducted under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed for the local flight that departed Laconia Municipal Airport (LCI), Laconia, New Hampshire, about 1520.

    Several witnesses reported that the aircraft circled very low over the beach and looked like it was going to land. It then banked sharply left and descended nose-down near a residence. Two of the witnesses reported a sputtering or loss of engine noise, while five witnesses reported good or an increase in engine noise.

    The wreckage came to rest nose-down and upright. Examination of the wreckage by a Federal Aviation Administration inspector revealed substantial damage to both wings and the fuselage. The inspector noted that fuel remained in the two carburetor fuel bowls and in the single-fuel tank. He was able to rotate the propeller by hand, confirm valve train continuity and attain thumb compression on all cylinders.

    The recorded weather at LCI, at 1535, included wind from 190 degrees at 4 knots, visibility 9 miles and clear sky.

    The engine and an electronic flight information system were retained for further examination."

    It can be found at http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20150906X32704&key=1
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    I can say that it sounds like he stalled the trike during a banked turn at the end. He was obviously circling low over the beach as witnesses described which at his stage with people on the beach is just not right to begin with. Can't fly like that guys as a rookie. Be smart.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 years ago
    So what do you make of this Abid? (just Curious)
    " Two of the witnesses reported a sputtering or loss of engine noise, while five witnesses reported good or an increase in engine noise."
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Leo: I would be speculating but if I have to speculate I would say, he was planning to buzz the beach and got slow and then stalled (that's when it banked and nose down ... he hit nose down according to the preliminary report) and went in hard. Usually when the aircraft stalls it would nose down and sink rate would increase a lot and instinct would be to hit full throttle and thus an increase in engine noise. Basically if you want my opinion to be very honest, I think he was flying beyond his hours and stalled it. Its very easy near the ground for new pilots to get fixated on ground objects and then the speed seems high because of proximity and then you start to slow down naturally and next thing you know you do a slight turn and the aircraft stalls. Bill was older, I think over 65. I think as we get older activities like triking that require upper body strength and co-ordination become harder to do if you are not already flying them. I think people of that age need to use milder wings and also stick with more conservative approach at first like never flying below 500 feet and staying in areas where there are good landing opportunities. That's what I think and that's how I teach. My student's life and limb are my first and most important priority and if I have to tell someone that triking isn't for them or even set them straight if they do something I think was dangerous, trust me I do it even if I lose a sale.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 2 years ago
    Totally understand Abid, again, more out of curiosity than anything else. I fly with some folks in that age range. They sure don't seem to be buzzing houses or flying that low and I think they know after many years of experience that kind of flying can get you in trouble fast....clearly.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Well, either situation ... maneuvering very low in that area, beach and water causing a stall and loss of control - or engine out while maneuvering very low in that area, beach and water without a place to emergency land or stall while trying to emergency land in an almost impossible place to do so ... either way does not really work well for the pilot.

    Since Riz started this blog and now some very basic facts have been produced by the NTSB preliminary investigation, it would be good to know what Riz opinion is after the few facts we have. To me this is quite telling:

    "Several witnesses reported that the aircraft circled very low over the beach and looked like it was going to land. It then banked sharply left and descended nose-down near a residence"

    Why do I see Henry's video in my head? with an engine working fine or even w/out engine working 100%... what eye witnesses described is basically the same as the video but seeing from the ground, a low level sharp bank turn follow by a nose dive. And we already saw how quickly that can go really bad.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Abid, Age and maturity can only be stereotyped. And some 65 year olds have one foot in the grave with health problems and a long list of medications with side effects. Other 65 year olds are just fine. Age is just a number. If some one is highly medicated with physical impermearments and poor judgement, I don't care what their age is.

    We had an 82 year old with a Profi TL back in the day (very mild wing). Great guy, but wanted to solo himself after only completing less than half his training. Luckily our mechanic "told on him" and I went up and did a silent solo with him which yielded me a sore back for a month. He went on to solo (I wasn't smart/experienced enough to refuse him training back then) and I watched him almost crash it trying to land in some guys back yard air strip after blowing the approach and relentlessly forcing the trike onto the ground at about 80 MPH. Then he took it up to NY and wound up landing in huge winds only after the FBO told him the storm was coming. His response was ill come back after it passes. Luckily his only injuries were caused from rolling while taxiing back to the hangar which blew out his shoulder and ended his trike flying career.

    Point is dangerous pilots come in all ages shapes and sizes. And as I have said before outside one envelope is outside ones envelope.
  • jeff trike
    by jeff trike 2 years ago
    Pure speculating here . . . Bill was flying low, maybe at low speed, got confused, maybe apprehensive with everything streaming by fast, took his foot off the gas to slow down like in a car. This sounded like the engine sputtering. This caused him to sink, pushed out, stalled bad.

    Taking your foot off the gas when you get nervous is a bad reflex that carries over from driving a car. You need to be aware of it and actively work to not fall into that trap.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Hi Larry:
    Yes age is just a number but its a number that I have seen over and over again show that most of the time it matters in how fast they learn, what their reflexes are and how they need to fly. Sure they can learn but as we get older we should not fool ourselves, we do not learn like someone in their 20's, 30's or even 40's. Hopefully our maturity and wisdom makes up for those shortcomings. There are always exceptions to every rule but for sure this is a trend in general. Research btw does show that people who keep learning all their life keep a malleable brain but in this society people stop learning when they pass their 40's.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    As Henry's video showed distractions on the ground can kill. Especially when you are less than 1 mistake high.

    I was WARNED by my instructor that flying over your house and taking pictures when you have less than 100 hours is a great way to get killed. Looking at the ground or fixating on the ground or a beautiful girl on the beach can be VERY distracting. Let's all upload Henry's video and watch again.

    I'm not saying this is the cause of the accident with Bill, but there were definitely some near by distractions for any trike pilot that close to the beach.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Bottom line is a new minted pilot at those hours with already one serious accident (or even without it) should have never been flying that low. 500 feet. Rule of thumb, if you are not taking off or landing 500 feet is the lowest AGL altitude you should have as a new pilot.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Yes Abod, I totally agree that my 45 hour 75 year old student takes longer to train than my 17 hour 45 year old student. There is a lot of consistency there. What I am saying is my 45 hour student is JUST AS READY to safely fly solo as my 17 hour student. They are both ready.... They are both safe to fly in a very small envelope of no wind and flying in the pattern or over big green fields until they progress. And after 100 hours the 45 year old will probably be more proficient than the 75 year old. But the 75 year old is just as safe as the 45 year old except their envelopes are DIFFERENT sizes.

    If lower skill level was the problem, then most crashes would probably happen on solo flights. But that's not the case. The cases are generally when the student exits his envelope by flying outside of it. And this can happen to a freshly soloed student, a 200 hour student or it can happen to me. And I need to watch myself just as importantly as a newbie.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    True
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Abid, I could not agree with you more that a super low time pilot had no business in my opinion doing what bill was videotaped doing moments before the accident. Even if he had gone home without incident having the best day of his life, it doesn't make it right.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    It is very sickening to see this same story repeat itself since I started flying. Any of us can make a mistake and have unfortunate things happen. Those would be accidents. But unfortunately a lot of the time, I have found myself predicting accidents and then seen them happen and this is not just me its all over aviation. There is a personality that is not suited for aviation. Sometimes that personality lasts a very long time even through the whole aviation career but other times (most of the time) they perish sooner or later. They are accidents too but they are more predictable. I hate that.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Tony, VERY WELL SAID.... I have nothing further to add...
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Iam 59 ive always been in fairly good health.untill recently. The last months ive been dealing with knee issues . At bonners ferry i got there wanting to have fun but could barely walk. Imberassing. Every pilot should make a good acessment of health.I had alot of pressure to fly as i wanted to be with friends. I elected not to based on i had so much pain i wasnt sure i could steer. I didnt fly after a couple of days i felt better and got some nice flights. I find that as i get older i dont take as many risks as i use to. I dont always fly above 500 ft but when iam low i make sure iam flying fast with some good lzs and power line free in good air. If its moderatly bumpy wich doesnt bother me i stay above 500. Plus i enjoy climbing up to good high alttitude to enjoy the view. Good learning here for everyone as larry was not comfortable with bills flying. Bill made some bad choices its very sad. If i was able id have a revo or a tanarg for xc. I enjoy flying my airbourne red back and my mustang wing. I love my soaring trike so i can still get the hang glider effect. Any way you look at it i feel blessed to have the privelege to be able to fly. And to share good company with flying friends.living is exsperiencing life not just existing.I try to respect that privilege
    And if i go tommarrow i want people to say man he really lived
    Rip bill crow
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 2 years ago
    Tony, I think Abid and Jeff hit nail on the head here. First of all I think in Bill's case it is sad because Abid on this forum suggested to him not to undertake flying from Florida to NH. But somehow he made it just fine. And then this tragic accident happened.

    At this point it is just a speculation but the way Abid and Jeff described, it does make sense. So my point of view in Bill's case or in any trike pilot's case is that a CFI is in the best position to judge the ability of their student.

    One thing we can agree on is that their is a lot of innovations in trike wings, making them very fast, and as mentioned above by many, these new super trikes require some serious transition.

    I think just as a CFI enters limitations (such as winds the student is allowed to fly in) on a students log book upon their solo. Maybe the CFIs should add recommendations as what type of wing could be suitable for the student. The CFI should keep a copy and the manufacturer/dealer should look at CFI recommendation before selling anything to that student and take responsibility of any additional training if needed.

    This is just my opinion. I do NOT know if this is practical but hopefully could help save students from themselves in making poor choices, and in the event of the accident, they may prevent any law suits against manufacturers and instructors. Just my two cents.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Riz: there is the class endorsement for Vh > 87 knots that should be in the student's logbook if the trike can actually do that. I think Revo falls short of it slightly with calibrated speed though at listed full gross weight but may be not.

    Also like Bill many of these customers buy the aircraft before solo. Some buy it before even flying or taking a few lessons in them. In my opinion you should go take a few hours of lessons in them before you make a purchase. Make sure you can handle the machine. Anyway that would also not have saved Bill. It's just a generic recommendation.

    I also think that the same safety cautions I used before for any trike still remain valid for these types of machines for new pilots or students. No flying below 500 feet for students and new pilots and flying in calmer conditions slowly building up tolerance and control up to fly in mid day bumps and more crosswind.
    You go away from this proven formula and you are likely to suffer the consequences.
  • John Olson
    by John Olson 2 years ago
    500'???
    Absurd!
    I have been insisting of all my students down on the beach that they demonstrate a low pass while I watch before they shoot me a touch 'not go. 500' won't do it!
    Furthermore, if they stay at 500' how will they LAND??!
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Riz, your point well taken. As representative of a manufacturer that do make trikes with Vh 87 ... Pretty much all, including the GT450, I get the question asked very often... Regarding if a new pilot be ok to start his triking career i a QUIKR, I normally rather they start in a GT450 or a GTR and suggest that. However, people also purchase trikes in the used market and not necesarilly required to call the manuf. or rep... I mean, there is no law that prevents you from buying any trike you want... And thanks God for that!

    So, really, if we want to live in this free society, not as free as John Olson would like unless we include a free mexican army, but perhpas a lot more free than North Korea, then we (owners/pilots) must also tbare responsability. Somewhere in the middle must be the balance. I certainly will not advice to purchase an aircraft which I consider beyond your capability based on experience, etc.

    that being said, the P&M GT450 actually has a Vh 87 so it requires endorsement, however, I will consider the GT450 suitable for beginner pilots, and it is still a great performance 2 seat LSA trike. The GTR wing is not far from that either. the QUIK, due to its small wing, hence less ground effect on take off and land, and the QUIKR which can easily reach Vne, those I would like to discuss in detail with the owners.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    And, on the subject of "high performance" be good to define better ... as a pilot of soaring trikes in alltrikes.com mentioned, high performance for him means his trike with 200 fpm sick rate and a glide ration better than 15/1 ... that is some awesome soaring performance indeed for a soaring motorized weight-shift! ... but not sure is what normally we refer to as performance in here when discussing high performance LSA 2-seat trikes... anyways... his point was well taken also.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    As to the discussion of below 500 i see both point as having validity.being an x hangie my biggest problem was foot throttle. Flying the wing no problemo, power off landings i think mine were better than my first instructors. From ga having throttle on dash no problem but foot while steering maintaining even rpms took me a bit to get use too. Rob spent some time with me at altitude getting use to the throttle. Then when i was better worked me pretty hard doing passes down the runway preparing me for the more power on landings. Glad he did? After that with scott johnson i was doing some solo landings for scott on one approch i came up a little short applied power and dropped it off 15ft above the runway( then got my tail put between my legs bowed head and ears back) realized my poor throttle control had reared it ugly head.Glad i had an instructor to scold me. So i think ole has a point that it should be in prep for solo. But then mayby abid has a point too that you should keep good altituide while flying by youreself. Might be that some students demonstrating good throttle management are ok. While others may not?
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Tony i heard what joe had to say and very good point thanks for mentioning it here. Joe is a smart guy and great in analitical writting. I think of high performance as it relates to type. Hp hang glider, hp soaring trike, high performace trike . Thats the way i look at it. I would concider revo tanarg quick and astra like the one my friend george balaz flys with 100 hp engines high performance. I concider my friend henrys revo well thats a cadallac!!
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Code of Federal Regulations




    Title 14 - Aeronautics and Space




    Volume: 2

    Date: 2007-01-01

    Original Date: 2007-01-01

    Title: Section 61.327 - How do I obtain privileges to operate a light-sport aircraft that has a VH greater than 87 knots CAS?

    Context: Title 14 - Aeronautics and Space. CHAPTER I - FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION (CONTINUED). SUBCHAPTER D - AIRMEN. PART 61 - CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS. Subpart J - Sport Pilots.



    § 61.327 How do I obtain privileges to operate a light-sport aircraft that has a VH greater than 87 knots CAS?
    If you hold a sport pilot certificate and you seek to operate a light-sport aircraft that has a VH greater than 87 knots CAS you must—

    (a) Receive and log ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft that has a VH greater than 87 knots CAS; and

    (b) Receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized instructor who provided the training specified in paragraph (a) of this section certifying that you are proficient in the operation of light-sport aircraft with a VH greater than 87 knots CAS.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Could that VH > 87 knots endorsement alone be the actual appropriate definition of High Performance Weight-Shift Light-Sport Aircraft? or is there more to it??
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Tony high performance in powered aircraft is different than high performance in sail planes and gliders. They are concerned with huge glide ratios etc. but airplanes are concerned with speed, range, climb rate etc. There is nothing new there. Its simply context. If you are talking to a glider pilot, he is concerned with sail planes and glide ratios and minimum sink and if you are talking to an airplane pilot, he cares much less about that and talks about speed, power, climb. FAA officially defines high performance for airplanes and you need an endorsement for high performance and complex airplanes and glide ratios and minimum sink is not anywhere in there. That should be a clue that for powered aircraft that are not gliders what is accepted as high performance.
    But anyway, there is no way any flexwing hang glider or even flexwing soaring trike has 15:1 glide ratio. This must be a non-flexwing hang glider and there 15:1 is rather average, nothing too hard about that. I can get 15:1 out of our trikes if I am allowed to put on a non-flexwing on there. No problem. It can also go way faster. Your GT450 flexwing even gives 12:1 glide ratio today. Imagine if Bill could put on a non-flexwing delta wing on there. You don't think he can get 15:1 glide ratio on the same machine when you are seeing 12:1 now?
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Abid, I am trying to understand what it means When I hear some pilots mention that in their opinion higher performance trikes are more dangerous ... I do not think they are talking about the glide ratio when they use the high performance connotation on their claim, or they are even talking about gliders or soaring trikes ... not even Part 103 ... I think they refer to ... I do not know, speed? engine power?

    If we are going to now start a conversation about what is high performance in trikes ... oh boy :-(

    I just would like to understand those that have a believe that high performance trikes are more dangerous, what do they mean by high performance and why they think they are more dangerous. But it may be difficult to achieve that here because people tend to over analyse hence the content get lost quickly
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Tony: When you cut through the veil, what they are talking about is speed and smaller wings (higher wing loading). Bill at P&M in the UK (Europe) and me in the US with original Delta Jet and Hazard 12 wing started down this path of higher wing loading and smaller wings on relatively cleaner trike carriages. To me they handled turbulence better, allowing pilot to remain in control in worse conditions, a big huge utility problem. You yourself alluded to it via personal experience on this.

    One has to keep in mind that not all fatal accidents are happening to all small wing trikes. The Apollo Aircraft, Inc. brand I was involved with that I assembled in our own way for the US market using our own selected wings are all faster trikes but they are not involved in any fatal accident even once yet. It really comes down to training and the persons being attracted to your brand. Its good to be selective sometimes.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Hi Tony, I think if we talk motorcycles and you need to give a teenager a motorcycle, probably not a good idea to give him a CBR 1000. In Australia they only allow teens to ride up to 250 CC. I think there is some degree of safety in riding a motorscooter. However you are probably thinking a motorscooter will get you killed trying to ride it on the interstate, and the CBR 600 (GT 450 12.5 meter) is a better bike to start with and the CBR 1000 (QuikR 11 meter) is probably better for a second bike. This is my feeling as well...

    When an adult wants to go out and buy that $$$$ Harley Davidson or Goldeing or BMW motorcycle as their first bike that is generally a successful purchase and the buyer is happy and as safe on it as a motor scooter and safer in many cases.

    So it's the same type of argument on what is appropriate for a first bike.

    Can a first time guy get a QuikR? Yes and even use it quite safely, but the Gt 450 or GTR 13.5 although packed with tons of similar performance will give them something more forgiving. I too will not recommend our Competitin 11 wing for new pilot and refer them to our bigger wings that are 12.5 or 13.5 just like the P+Ms.

    The big problem is it is so hard for people flying 15 meter king posted wings with 7:1 glide ratios to think that a 12.5 meter wing will not make the trike turn into a bigger brick than what they are use to.
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 2 years ago
    Tony - the best description I have of "high performance" is how long do you have to react to a problem before you get into serious trouble. This might be due to a sharp stall break, a tendency to quickly diverge in a spiral, a higher trim speed or sink rate, or whatever. I imagine some of these attributes can be designed around but that there are some are fundamental tradeoffs for better performance.

    The constant refrain of "crashes are due to pilot error, anyone can be trained to fly this trike safely" is true but misses the point a little; pilots make mistakes and the more time they have to notice their mistakes and correct the safer things are going to be.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Jake the problem with that simplification is that UK where these so called high performance trikes from P&M are there and have been there for a while has no increase in fatal accidents in trikes than before to the best of my knowledge. Also there have been no fatal accident in any Apollo we sold here with faster wings. How do you explain that?
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Jake, altitude will do the same thing as well. So if one is flying at very high speeds low to the ground they do have less time to react like what Jake is saying. If a pikot is going 50 mph or 85 MPh and is up high, the only way they can tell the difference is to really look at the airspeed indicator.

    The point Tony made is true. If we are talking about how fast a wing can get away from a pilot from quickly banking and getting behind the plane, then the Wizzard is far more advanced even at 17 meters.

    If low level flying in a tight area is the goal, the slower wing will make tighter turns easier and give more time. If we are talking about landing with a straight approach to a long runway for the beginner, I have to agree with Tony that most performance wings are going to be easier to keep lined up if the beginner has to land in mid day conditions or poor conditions.
  • Rebekah S
    by Rebekah S 2 years ago
    Can anyone speak to the wing twist in these different high performance wings?
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    The RIVAL S wing uses 20 degrees on the outboard sprogs and 10 degrees on the inboard.
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 2 years ago
    Abid - you seem to be arguing against something I didn't say.

    But there are several possible explanations for the different accident rates you observe. One is the law of small numbers - there are few enough trike accidents that the incremental danger of a high performance wing may be outweighed by other factors. Another is that flying in the UK is more expensive and more regulated so the pilot population is probably different. Another (and maybe the biggest) is that the Revo is aggressively and effectively marketed in a way that might attract pilots more prone to accidents.

    Larry - good points regarding low altitude reducing reaction times and higher wing loadings making some landings easier. Another aspect of high performance might be how different they feel at different speeds etc. I have a friend who didn't buy a BMW M5 because it would go 100mph with no perceptible vibration or noise so he would just get speeding tickets until his license got revoked.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    I would like to hear from someone that insists that high performance trikes are more dangerous. Riz, I believe you have mentioned that before but I am not sure. If so, could you elaborate please? I would like to understand what is your definition of high performance trike and compared to what? and also why the additional performance makes it dangerous?

    I am sorry to continue asking this question but I am trying to understand. I do have my own definition, as well as others, but I need to understand from those that believe increased performance increases danger.

    I do agree on the obvious, increased performance needs additional training... NO PILOT IN AVIATION GOES TO INCREASED PERFORMANCE AIRCRAFT WITHOUT ADDITIONAL TRAINING... not because the higher performance aircraft if more dangerous, is because precisely the additional performance call for additional training...

    The increased performance of a Boeing 747 does not make it more dangerous than a Cessna 172 ... yet, if you have no training for the 747 and you go fly ... well, you will probably make it a extremely dangerous plane right? F-16 pilots do not start flying F-16 ... they progress ... to become F-16 pilots... before you fly twin engine or turbo jet .. you probably became proficient flying single engine... and of course we can go on and on... if we use the same analogy of the part of the trike pilot community equating increased performance with higher risk ... then all these 747, 777, F16, twin engines, etc... will be a lot more dangerous than a Cessna 150 ... hence... crazy thing to have them flying?

    So, is the increased performance of an aircraft an attempt to make it more dangerous?? or the pilot that is not trained to fly sees it more dangerous... I will S my pants right now if I had to fly one of the safest planes in the world .. like a Boeing 777 ... I will probably crash it right away before even taking off

    Sorry... I may have rumbled here and extended ... :-( ... is just that I am really confused by the pilots saying that and I am trying really hard to understand their point
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Perhaps what they mean is that some higher performance trikes may be less forgiving....
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Less forgiving ... if that is the case, which I understand, then the key is to increase performance (because in aviation that is always a good goal) but increase it while maintaining the characteristics that make the aircraft still well behaved even for less experienced pilots.

    So, if I decide to take a trike that has been cruising at 55 mph ... re-design .. to now cruise at 100 mph and increased range, but if my stall speed remains very close to what it was, the handling characteristics almost identical or even improved, the behavior and feedback during banking / climb / descent still well predictable and stable... the glide ratio and sink rate equal or actually better and the take off and landing speeds very similar, the only thing that I can think will make the new trike with improved speed and range "more dangerous" is that it can fly faster?

    I do not get it... the P&M GT450 is a trike that out performs older designs like the Airborne with a Wizard 17 sqm ... it has a VH over 87 knots (so must be in the High Performance class if we use that endorsement as part of the definition) and yet, it will out perform the slower Wizard in ALL departments... with a stall at the same weight of just a few mph higher ... why will then the High Performance GT450 be more dangerous?

    I do not get it
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    oh, and when they say "high performance" I relate as "Improved Performance" .. perhaps I am not interpreting right. Also, what I understand for more dangerous is that it is more likely to cause harm or injury. I just want to make sure that my interpretation to what these pilots write or say is correct.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    ok... promised... I'm done!
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 2 years ago
    Tony - it's important to be clear about what we're comparing. Everything else being equal the 747 is absolutely more dangerous to fly than a Cessna 150. This is why you can solo a 150 after a few hours of dual but it is flat-out illegal to fly a 747 solo.

    You need a copilot, but you also need a type rating, multi-engine rating, high-altitude endorsement, etc, etc. If you're flying passengers part 135 or part 121 add a bunch of maintenance and operational requirements. All of these combine with the extra performance to make typical 747 operations much safer than typical Cessna 150 operations despite a more dangerous aircraft. Think about how much safer Cessna 150 operations would be if they were exclusively flown with a crew of two that had extensive simulator time, mandatory recurrent training, etc, etc.

    The 55mph to 100mph redesign is an interesting thought experiment. In the ideal situation you describe the difference in safety might not be so great. At a minimum being able to fly at 100 and stall at 40 requires an effective trim system which is another thing to manage and potentially screw up; what happens when you try to land a Revo trimmed fully fast?

    Thanks for the interesting discussion.
  • Amy Saunders
    by Amy Saunders 2 years ago
    Jake, that is a good question regarding the trim set in full fast and landing the Revo. I have been cruising at 100 mph on cross countries and then forgot to reset the trim to slow when landing. There is a good amount of bar pressure when landing but it's not unmanageable.
    My background with the Revo is that I trained and soloed the Blue Devil wing which is a 10.9 meter. The new Rival S wing (12.5 m) is considerably easier to fly and land. The performance is better in every category except for taxiing in really strong winds. With proper training flying a tuned wing, regardless of size and speed, should not really be a factor.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Tony first let me say that i have the upmost respect for your position and i am aware of your exsperience. I HAVE been trying verry hard to be polite, non confrontational.As well as pablo ,larry,and yes even abid whom i have connected badly with in the past. Iam all up for burying the hatchet. Iam not sure if by my post past if you larry abid tony refer to me as one saying that faster ,heavier little wings are more dangerous.let me try to clarify how i see it without desturbing anyone to badly? I have nothing against these trikes have flown them.My personal choice yes a hp soaring trike, strong light engine, dble surface wing ,variable geometry ,good glide ratio ,lightly wing loaded yup thats for me.But also a well built xc machine with small wing backseat for my wifey and go fly with friends having a great time at fly ins .In the wrong hands danger is relitive to both. There are small wing heavy trike pilots that say might be more at risk punching in a rowdy thermal or scraping in ridge lift.or getting blown off course in a big wing from rotor on landing. So cant we agree that danger is much more related to the specifics of how we fly and the knowlege we aquire.I also think we can agree that in flight structual failure is quite rare in normal circumstances.you can take any trike little wing big wing light heavy point it at the ground and kill yourself. So can we take speed and error which we all are capable in differnt degrees.Can i say that landing at a slower speed may be more forgiving in general.
    IT seems to me that most of this falls on the descretion of the cfis.there are some who will do just fine in a slower floaty trike some that can jump right into a faster trike and some you have to say well really like to sell you this bird but you dont have the skills. You need to find another sport. From what larry abid paul tony says they do that! In almost every instance i seen a pilot who has had a severe crash has been warned multiple times.Ive had pilots mention things to me that need correction, I see it i change it.Ive had pilots scold me about things i disagreed with and they crashed. NO matter what we fly fast slow big little. If we are not working listning practicingon not becoming a statistic. Thats what we will become.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Tony in answer to your post we may be relating danger and increased performance to our personal abilitys. A Fast little wing ,good at penetrating bumpy air in the hands of an exsperienced pilot or a talented newbie may be described as very good performance. A pilot that is not that skilled or unframilar might say dangerous. We may not know we are descrbing are own ability. I dont know does that make any sense?
  • Michael Kocot
    by Michael Kocot 2 years ago
    We all know flying can be unforgiving when impacts happen. It doesn't really matter who manufactured what, and was it a higher performance trike and wing or a mild wing and a 503. It's like comparing motorcycle wrecks and saying a larger bike is more dangerous that a smaller. It all comes down to the pilots decision making and experience. The later may or may not save your ass but may aid in helping make the correct decision. I hope Bill's loved ones are at peace knowing he was doing what he enjoyed, flying. Condolences to his family.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Why do I see it all backwards??? Why do I have this belief that a higher performance trike, properly designed and manufactured, is actually safer than ... Well.. Whatever does not provide the performance, design and manufactured quality. And as a pilot which I become out of my own will, why would I think of it as dangerous? i do know I need to be skilled to fly, even a safer aircraft I do have to be skilled, and in cases like VH >87K additional training to fly it, tell me one plane that is safer to fly by unskilled pilot.... But the additional skill and training should make me a better pilot, I hope, and the higher performance makes it all for a safer combination. I am really not kidding...
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Jake, with P&M (and I assume others as well) to set trim is not necessary or required for take off or landing whatsoever. The wing is already designed and tuned to fly as is, and the trims is just added to slow the flight speed. We do not change the hang point, just raise the angle of attack to slow the flight (like push control bar out a bit and the trim keeps it there).
  • dave kempler
    by dave kempler 2 years ago
    Tony, I agree with you, so maybe it would be a good idea to look at it "backwards." I have had 3 wings so far, including one of your older ones and one of Larry's newer ones. I feel much safer in my new wing, though it flies much differently. Yes, it is more sensitive, and flies considerably faster. But what makes me "feel" safer is the way it self corrects in bumpy air and how effortless it is to correct when required. It floats forever in ground effect no matter where the trim position is. And the MTOW increased by nearly 200 lbs. Even though it stalls a bit faster, I am trained to watch airspeed constantly, especially in steeper turns. Is it more dangerous than my first wing? Well, if I flew it the same way, why, yes it would be. Exceedingly so. Would I go back to an older wing? Heck no! So, looking at things backwards, as you suggest, who would go back to outdated technology when the new technology makes things stronger and safer? It just requires different technique. That requires training.
  • Thomas Nielsen
    by Thomas Nielsen 2 years ago
    @ Tony - we cant really compare the high performance trike to that of general aviation fixed wings. As Jake mentioned, the higher performance of fixed wings are often accompanied by many other requirements in training, certification, operation etc. Performance here does not only mean power, but also de-ice or anti-ice capabilities, systems redundancy and increasingly complex autopilots. All in all safety goes up with performance, with the exception being light twins. Engine outs in light twins kills more pilots pr. flight hour than single engine outs. (this is especially true in a non-counter rotating config with the left engine out during climb attitude) Reason here being the asymmetrical thrust combined with the abysmal performance on the remaining engine. On a hot summer day at gross you are better off shutting the good engine down and pretend you are a single engine ;-)

    Trikes are really simple and operates within a relative narrow speed band, all single engine, one control surface. so I am not sure high performance is the right term as a differentiator. Not being a trike pilot - yet - I cant comment on differences in safety except to speculate that engine power is a good thing and a predictable forgiving wing that is not too prone to turbulence is desireable. I don't think it matters much whether your approach speed is 35 or 55 or if you can cruise at 60 or 90.

    As I have said before - I strongly believe safety is 90% found in our attitudes and humility as airmen. It is a sentiment that is passed on from instructors and fellow pilots. It is also honesty.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Jake, the 55mph going to a 100mph design concept (with under 40mph stall) is not an experiment, it exists already and been around for quite some time... the 55mph cruise is for example a Pegasus Quantum 912 w/Q2 wing 15 sqm a 55-60mph cruise .. and the P&M QUIKR 912s is a 100mph cruise that stalls at under 40mph .. .which is a great design improvement and there is no handling ill effects, in fact, the QUIKR has better handling than the Pegasus Quantum Q2. The trim, as I mentioned before, ... is not required or needed at all for take off or land. If fact I seldom use it for that purpose. I use the trim just to slow down when flying with other trikes, yes including Revos ... sorry Larry but I can't lie, and also use it to slow down to take pics.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Thomas, Jake. sorry .. .not trying to compare trikes to F16's, or say that the 747 is not a complex aircraft and that can be flown by a Cessna 150 pilot without any trouble. Obviously the analogy that I was trying to present regarding performance in aviation, and the point I was trying to make not using other trike models because may sound bias, got totally lost in the translation. But thanks for pointing that out.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    We keep refering to the safety of the wing. Iam speaking of a new pilot flying a faster wing with quicker roll.You guys mention the faster roll rate to correct a bank. Student make large and sudden errors.A quicker roll rate pushed in the wrong direction taking off could present a danger if that student gets confused and rolls it further in the wrong direction. I dont know but i think you guys are making me glad iam not a cfi. But everything ive been taught in aviation you start in a more forgiving aircraft? Air force you start out in a t-34 then move to a t-38 go to combat training and they put you in a f -34. Flying sail planes thlley start you out in a switzer 2-32 then 2-33 then the performance gliders. Hang gliding they start you on the bunny hill with a floaty single surface easy to get in the air . Then you get itermediate glider , then advanced gliders. I mean thats how ive always been trained in anything. You know i would have hated starting out weight shift with no exspeirence in a xt 912 having to push against the engine tourqe while taking off.I could see where a lightly musseled pilot that could present a problem. I guess iam just old school. So what i think your saying is that the birds you guys fly handle so well that there is not much difference in handeling.ive never flown a revo or quik . I have flown a tanarg and yes i did like its handling and performance.I have flown the quest gt5 and i really liked the handling in turb.i have flown the airbourne xt with different wings. I can say the arrow felt quirky to me not my favorite.profi looks bitchen but ive never seen one.i started my training in my redback 6 years ago maybe if i started in a revo or tanarg id feel different.i mean i think well ya i could of started in a revo and done all right.But then i think other students with no flight exsperience ever i have known and id have to rethink my submission to the way you see it. But i do not think those machines are inherantly dangerous or i wouldnt fly one.
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 2 years ago
    Tony - in earlier posts you mention that the QuikR is probably not a good choice for a new pilot, partly because it's easier to reach Vne. This sounds like a reasonable position, but is also a downside of higher performance. Or am I misunderstanding you?

    I'm also really curious how the QuikR flies. It's hard for me to imagine what the bar forces are like across a speed range of 2.5.

    My Tanarg / Bionix 15 combo can be trimmed to fly hands-off from something like 60mph to 70mph. The bar forces to speed up or slow down a couple mph are light but not zero, 55 or 75 are definitely noticeable, and 50 or 80 takes work. But this is nice because it makes it harder to inadvertently stall - you really have to be pushing out to get the speed that low.

    It seems like on the QuikR you'd need to really muscle the bar out to land, really muscle it in to cruise at 100mph, or have to be really precise with pitch inputs to avoid your speed going all over the place in between. But again, I've never flown one so I'm interested to hear from those with experience.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    White Eagle,

    I will quote this from your post:

    "So what i think your saying is that the birds you guys fly handle so well that there is not much difference in handeling"

    And my answer to that will be without a doubt a YES with a however, the however is that not all of the newer, smaller, faster wings are created and tuned equally. So, best to check with the manufacturer or rep. first.

    SOME newer, smaller, faster wings will absolutely be as docile as the bigger, slower - perhaps thought as beginner wings ... and the handling not be extreme at all, and in fact, in my opinion - in some of the high performance wings I am referring to - the handling will be better, more precise and provide even better feedback - or predictable.

    A trike wing that has too many limitations, to make it so stable because it is supposed to be better for a beginner .. much more forgiving - it may be close to unmanageable in weather other than perfect, it will limit your progress as a pilot pretty soon in your flying career.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Jake: UK has far more trike pilots than the US even though their weather sucks and there are far more small fast wings on P&M trikes in the UK than there are small wing trikes in the US. The numbers are not even in the same ball park.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Jake: When you land a Revo or P&M or Delta Jet-II trimmed stuck fast, you feel more bar pressure while pushing out during landing but nothing one can't overcome and you would have plenty of warning that that has happened in the pattern before so plenty of time to prepare mentally for it.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    One thing that is hard to argue with between Jake, white eagle etc. is that the slower the trike can land the safer it is to land at slower speed. I think white eagle or someone said that. That is why its important to get the trike wing to stall slow and to practice landing with proper technique to take advantage of each trike's speed range
  • Drew Pawlak
    by Drew Pawlak 2 years ago
    Tony - my opinion based on limited exposure but a lot of observation and learning from others is that I agree with you 100% with regards to more capable (aka higher performance) trikes being safer to fly - Within reason. I don't think you have it backwards at all! Let me explain.

    6 years ago when I started to investigate trikes as an option I found pretty much all of them flown in early morning and evenings in VERY calm condition. In several cases if the winds were blowing just 5 mph, pilots would either not fly or come down and call it a day. They claimed it was too rough and not fun. These were two place trikes (no single place and a mix of 2 stroke and 4 strokes). So I got to thinking I would only fly in the calmest conditions...which is why I would be lucky to get in 50 hours a year. After flying with Larry he blew that mindset out the window with my very first flight...at 11am in 10mph winds. Trikes CAN fly in other than perfectly still air.

    I fly my Revo trimmed for 75mph. That probably shocks a lot of people. Not everyone around here likes to go 100MPH with their hair on fire! It's comfortable and fast enough for me. This is what...10 mph faster than the "slower" and "safer" trikes out there? Sure I can trim it out to 90mph+ but I don't unless I have to get somewhere fast. My stall speed is 43mph with the Rival S at Max Gross (probably 40mph with just me in it). I saw someone state a 16mph stall speed somewhere but find that hard to believe for any comparable (sizewise) two place trike. Furthermore the glide slope at max gross is 9.5:1 which is not as bad as I think many people assume. The Rival S does a very good job balancing between managing turbulence and not being too sporty. I flew Larry's 11 Meter competition wing and that is a different animal. This is where you get into additional training needed to handle the much smaller envelope of safety and larger envelope of performance.

    So I feel that a faster/more capable trike is safer to FLY than a larger wing/slower trike BECAUSE it will be less upset by the conditions we will face MOST OFTEN - turbulent air. So when I am flying along and can cut through the turbulence in a confident and controlled manner - with light and responsive controls - I can continue to fly without messing up my shorts. (wife very happy about this fact). And from everything I have read and witnessed - I might land 5mph faster than someone in a 15M or larger wing? - oh and in control the whole way down. That is a trade off I am willing to make.

    I live in the North East and we tend to have "sharp" air around here. My home airport is poorly aligned with the prevailing winds and often we have a crosswind, lots of thermals due to parking lots off one end of the runway and mechanical turbulence due to a treeline adjacent the runway. Having a responsive trike is a benefit to me. It allows me to fly confidently when the air is worse than I want it to be and opens up additional hours of flying time I would not normally have. This doesn't imply stupid flying in 20+mph conditions. Whereas a year ago I wouldn't fly in more than 5mph winds, now with a bit more experience I don't think twice going up in 10mph conditions. My trike is capable of providing safe passage and my skills have progressed where I am comfortable doing so.

    So for me it's all about flying. Being in a trike that can chug along at 75mph vs 65mph in 10MPH winds confidently without issues - even enjoying it a bit - and managing the flying with fingertip input is, in my opinion, safer than being in a slightly slower trike with a big wing getting blown around and fighting to keep control. I've recently spoken to a few pilots who used to fly 15M - 19M wings and in anything more than 5mph winds and turbulence - they explained to me that these trikes were a handful to control. Now imagine landing a 19 meter wing in 10 mph crosswinds at my home airport vs my Revo - which do you think is safer now?

    For the record - I use Revo as an example because it is what I am familiar with. You could just as easily substitute DJ2, GT450, QuikR, etc. Also - I am not implying that larger wings are inferior. I would argue that in ideal condition these configurations would be considered safer. However, conditions are rarely ideal. Lastly, they were designed for a purpose and they can do things I can't - significantly shorter takeoff and landings, better soaring and thermal riding, and perhaps greater payloads. So again - these are not bad trikes/wings, just built for a different purpose and for different limitations.

    I hope my points came across in a constructive manner - as I intended them. Safe flying Y'all! and THANK YOU for the amazing conversation this has become. I am learning a great deal. We really need to collect all the sage input and turn this into a book project for future pilots. I think the material would be great coming from so many great contributors to the sport.
  • Drew Pawlak
    by Drew Pawlak 2 years ago
    One more thing...an sneak peak into my next article that I am writing:

    One of the things I love about trikes over Fixed wing GA aircraft - WING TUNING!! My Rival S is currently set up for an intermediate pilot. However with batten reshaping (per manufacturer guidelines), hall back tension adjustments and wing tip tuning, I can modify the performance/flight characteristics of my trike wing. Something you cannot do with other fixed wing aircraft - as far as I am aware. So you can get a wing tuned for the beginner and dial it into a higher performance wing (within reason) as skill progress and flying preferences change. When I figured this out during training...mind blown. When I tell my fellow GA pilots I can do this they all look at me with incredulity. Couple this with my $8/ hour cost to fly and I'm surprised no one has taken out a hit on me yet!
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 2 years ago
    Drew: you make a good points. For your case having a smaller wing (to a point) probably helps. But the person with the 19m wing won't take off in a 10mph crosswind. They don't get to fly, but they don't crash either.

    Ten days ago I was flying my Tanarg near gross weight at 7000 ft density altitude; under those conditions having a 15m wing is nice. When the thermals picked up and the wind started gusting to the high 20s I parked it but this didn't seem like a huge loss.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Jake: Your range on your Bionix for hands off cruise seems extremely limited 60 to 70 mph. That's just 10 mph hands off trim range. I think you should get it looked at. It should be more than that.
  • Drew Pawlak
    by Drew Pawlak 2 years ago
    Jake - great points and a good pilot knows the limitations of their machine and their abilities. So lets assume that we are dealing with good pilots. Both take off in good conditions for a 50nm cross country flight but then conditions change - as they often do - your example as a case in point. I'm sure both in competent hands will be just fine but one will be more work to control.

    I knows it's been stated before but maybe all this "Hyping" and "advertising" of increased capabilities is leading to people assuming the trike will save them or keep them out of trouble. So some people do silly stuff when they should have just stayed on the ground to begin with! I've gone up ONCE and learned what it means to wish you were on the ground. Now many a day goes by where I wish I were flying but keep both feet firmly planted on this good earth.

    In only 100 hours of flying experience there are more time than I want to count where I encountered a temperature inversion layer, sheer layer or some other condition change (like on the 20 minute return flight after stopping for breakfast where conditions got really bad in less than 45 minutes!) where I was happy to have a more agile trike.

    Thank you for reinforcing my point though about purpose built capabilities - you pointed that out well. I would NOT be flying at max gross at 7000' DA...starting to get to the limits there of my trike.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Hello Jake,

    Here I try to answer your questions:

    "in earlier posts you mention that the QuikR is probably not a good choice for a new pilot, partly because it's easier to reach Vne.

    In the standard configuration , yes, and also because we have a newer wing, the GTR, that in my opinion is better than the QUIKR as all around wing, and only slightly slower at the top end. However, if a beginner pilot insists in learning and flying a QUIKR - perhaps because s(he) bought a used one, I will recommend to de-tune the wing some by raising the wing tips (additional washout), and also mount the wing in the rear hang point (the QUIKR offers 2 hang point positions).


    "...but is also a downside of higher performance. Or am I misunderstanding you?"

    No for P&M wings, the performance range is quite wide in all wings, and they are all better than the previous generation of wings in pretty much all performance departments. Handling, Speed range, trims, L/D, materials, construction, rigging, etc. I see no downside, but a leap forward for our sport.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Jake, The QuikR is a big pussy cat to fly. Just don't aim it at the ground. The handling is super sweet at 90-105 mph. That's it's happy place. I haven't flow the new STARS SYSTEM yet that is said to help make it lighter in roll at slower speeds. The 10..6 Quik is just a delight to fly. Best handling wing out there... Unfortunately with a 900 lb gross weight. By the time you get to a GT 450 it is just super docile even though it is only 12.5 meters. In all cases the roll forces are a fraction of the wing you are flying with radically higher glide ratios. I strongly encourage you to fly one. Craig Valemtine can probably comment here...
  • Heather Davis
    by Heather Davis 2 years ago
    What I take from all this is that there are a lot of wonderful trikes, and joyfully, they are not all the same. I'm holding onto my 103 Air Creation Pixel for it's super fun low and slow (I'm up to 6 crow-hops per pass) and nimble handling. I'm loving my P&M Quik with the very small wing for turbulence, wind, speed, handling and distance. I haven't tried Airbornes or Revos, but I'd jump at the chance. For the record, I'd describe my gut feeling what I think of as "high performance" as wings that require more skill. Things happening faster with a narrower window to get it right.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Ps. I am a conousuor of wings. I love to fly them all and assess their qualities. Without comparison, one does not know what they have....
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Jake,

    You write:
    "It seems like on the QuikR you'd need to really muscle the bar out to land, really muscle it in to cruise at 100mph, or have to be really precise with pitch inputs to avoid your speed going all over the place in between. But again, I've never flown one so I'm interested to hear from those with experience."

    That is not the case at all. The pitch is totally predictable and balanced at all speeds with very good feedback. Never mushy at all. The wings is tuned for roll rates that are within specs at the high cruise speed, and fall some at the slower speeds, so they now install the STARS trim system that helps in making the roll lighter at the slower speeds so the roll is now more equalized through the speed range.

    There is no dutch roll at all, even when you pull in all the way... it just tracks straight like an arrow and the control bar maintains positive pressure at all times, it does not wonder at all in any direction. Also, very little ... probably no ... side slip in turns, at least I feel none.

    The P&M QUIKR is the fastest trike in the world because of these flight characteristics, anything short of that will not achieve the records it has. I can tell you, it is my favorite of all... and to me handling and feel of the wing is the most important perhaps because I come from the HG world. Lighter roll handling will be nice, and it is possible, at the cost of a bit of speed at the top end.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Tony, to me handling is the most important thing when flying a trike. To heck with performace. If I want that I'll fly my 115kt cruise Sky catcher with the same HP as my 80KT cruise REVO. 3 weeks ago we made a major breakthrough in the handling on the RIVAL S. I keep asking Abid to come fly it. Henry Trikelife has it already. Everyone that has flown it has confirmed it is a giant leap forward. the upgrade will be available in a couple weeks to the public and now standard equipment on new wings.
  • Doug Boyle
    by Doug Boyle 2 years ago
    In the General Aviation world they call Bonanzas and Mooneys doctor and lawyer-killers. Why would this be? We know it can't be all Doctors and Lawyers who happen to own Bonanzas or Mooneys. First, you have to be able to afford one. That doesn't necessarily get you killed. Second, you must be endorsed for Complex aircraft (200hp or greater, retractable landing gear, constant-speed propeller) -- read Advanced Training. Training is a good thing and doesn't imply danger. Third, you MUST be able to think further ahead of the aircraft, which is capable of going one mile in 15-20 seconds. That's where experience either wins the day or loses it.

    You can't ply the skies in a Cessna 150 every other weekend for a $100 hamburger and then jump into a high performance aircraft expecting an easy and safe adaptation. It's doable BUT the attitude must be modified. The attitude must take into consideration an enlightened respect for "what can happen". It's not a "Katy bar the doors" approach.

    A commitment on the part of the pilot is essential, i.e. acceptance of the learning curve. Taming the ego becomes part and parcel to this equation. Restraint along with a thorough exploration of your own personal skills keeps the next day available to continue some more. Unfortunately, for some, tomorrow never comes.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    I will Larry. I just delivered 4 aircraft this month or at least got them airworthied. 2 gyros, 1 trike, 1 airplane. I got another order today. And you know I am moving at full bore starting to weld up gyroplane frames for production. Very busy but if tomorrow evening is nice unlike today's lightning filled evening, I want to first fly the DJ LITE trike to tune it and then hopefully fly your new wing change. I promise.
  • Neil Scoble
    by Neil Scoble 2 years ago
    I trained and soloed in my QuickR with no problem, before I purchased the trike I asked the question if it was suitable for a beginner and my instructor told me that it would be no problem if that is what I learned in. Now I have to agree with him, although I do have a background in Hang Gliding so I wasn't totally new but it had been about ten years where I hadn't been flying. I did find the wing a bit twitchy at high speeds so I flew it a bit slower, as I have gained hours I increased my cruise speed. I think learning to fly anything has it's moments but with the proper instruction and attitude I don't think it would be any more difficult to fly a fast wing than a slower wing providing that it is well designed with good handling and feedback.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Larry, for me handling is also the most important thing ... as long as the trike can reach at least 100 mph at cruise (sorry .. I got spoiled already, and I do not have a Sky Catcher) ... then I can slow it down to 85, and fly 85 mph all day long.

    Handling then continue as the most important. And handling is more than just roll rate. Here is where I debate if I elaborate. It is getting late. But well, you know... we have pitch to consider, also adverse yaw, side slip, roll rate of course, dutch roll when pulling in, feed back from the control bar. I really will consider more than just roll rate ... granted, I LOVE light roll.

    The QUIK had it all. As far as handling, in a Trike with 2-seats and a heavy engine on back ... can I think on any trike that came even close to perfect handling other than the QUIK .. nope. Granted some other smaller did, but at that weight, none that I can think of.

    And yet, I rather fly the QUIKR .. and the roll rate is not the same, but all else is.. and the overall performance is better.

    I think the best will be to have the 2 wings in my hangar and problem resolved... and, ahh .. your Sky Catcher to fly faster...
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Thanks everyone some really good opinions here worth really looking at. I think ill sum my opionion giving way to others points. Ill try to say it this way. In 1993 i sold my hang glider do to a nasty divorce. Something i swore id never give up. In 2008 i picked up a copy of lesuire aviation. I mean it was holy guacamolie i could not believe that triking had come so far. It was like enter a far off distant future. So back into the sport o came. Back in the old days of the sensor the ,duck ,comet. Man good penitration but somewhat difficult to turn or fly
    certainly took some skill. So clearly something i think we all can agree on is that alot of progress has been made by manufactures and r an d engineering. We really have some good choices and options.
    I love heathers little pixel .ive drooled on henrys revo (really)! Loved flying a tanarg in the moutains of oz. We might not realize it but in oz they cant switch around wings as easy ,Its much more controlled
    So i will say thank you to the larry mednicks,abid ,kameron belvins ,pnm , profi tanag wing and trike manufacturers . And its clear by this blog that theres some pretty knowlegeable pilots paul ,larry, abid, tony castillo ,doug boyle and many others. I hope we can get these unnessasary fatalitys down to nothin. I learned alot here thanks
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Right on Doug, the only thing I will add is that they also often get in IFR conditions, because they are current for that .. but had hardly enough hours flying IFR to be proficient. I will bet that at least 1/2 of the GA accidents have some weather factor involved... I wild guess on my part
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    White Eagle, I am totally confused ... I am about to go to bed and read that due to nasty divorce in 93 you had to sell the hang glider .. that makes no sense ... wouldn't it be YEAAAA divorce .. now I get to keep my hang glider !!!!!

    In my case, I divorced in .. ahh .. 2001 .. and guess what: my UP COMET OVR is still in my basement.. YEAHHH... . then I finished the basement, put walls and sheet rock, painted, etc... then realized the hang glider was in the long closet at the end in the basement ... now I can't get it out!

    Talk about a HG impossible to turn, even with a loose VG, and mine .. was the OVR version that is all mylar... that can't be a weight-shift .. it does not shift anywhere!. Matt in Lookout mountain bought it for some competition and convinced me to buy it as the best thing ever. That is why Matt was so good making money !

    But U are right, how can we not be happy with all the performance improvements made by these great manufacturers. They are none stop thinking. doing and testing .. none are millionaires but working hard in something they love .. and these products are also being manufactured to better and better standards and safer.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 2 years ago
    Is there such as thing as a wing design that appeals to masses? We talked about very fast wings and then there are 19 meter wing. It seems they are extremes, they might be great at accomplishing one thing but might lack in another aspect. What would be considered a middle of the road wing? Is a single surface 15 meter a good middle of the road wing? I have heard that for Light Sport trikes that is the best seller for North Wing.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Heather, glad to see you here!!! Hope you are enjoying your QUIK ... I hope you now realize that perhaps indeed it has the handling you wanted .. for a 2-seat... sorry took a while to get you one to try!
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Heather... I correct ... not to get you one, but for YOU to find one to try!
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 2 years ago
    Also what affect does aspect ratio has on a wing? And should any pilot in the market for to purchase a new wing be concerned with the aspect ratio of that wing?
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Tony i,ll clarify. I was a beach bum hang glider pilot when i got married. My wife was a high faluten paraleagle that had worked for the president bill and hillery. So the only option was throw my hands up and say you win. I still can remember seeing her mother telling me (you dont need these ice cube trays) all i had left were a mattress and high rent and a hang glider . Whew love is a many splintered thing.
  • Mircea Andrei Zaharescu
    by Mircea Andrei Zaharescu 2 years ago
    This is my first post on Trikepilot, so “Hello to everybody” I followed the blog discussions with high interest but until yesterday considered that my experience is not enough to step in with my comments. White eagle mentioning the actual Revo owners made in to step in with a few information :
    - I now fly a Revo which I bought last year;
    - My flying started on 503 Apollo made in Hungary (third or fourth hand) and continued with an 582 Clipper from Aircreation (certainly third hand );
    - I visited Larry in February 2014 and made 5 hours training on Revo (with him and Wes also). At that moment I had a little more than 300 hours;
    - I have now 430 h.
    About the Revo I have :
    - It has now 87 h which is almost double of what I was able to fly in previous years, even is the weather was worth this year;
    - I am feeling confident flying it and never had a smallest doubt if it’s not better to be on the ground…;
    - I took flying gradually, don’t do high bank angles and only gradually extended my cross country flights;
    - In planning my cross country flights I still didn’t went over the mountains even if this is in my plans but I feel it needs more preparing / experience.
    To conclude:
    - Revo is great trike which allowed me to fly in mid day turbulence which I wasn’t doing before;
    - I paid the price for Revo even if it’s more expensive then my first two trikes ($8000 and $15000 when I bought them);
    - I worked for the money I paid, I consider that Revo was worth, and finally the price paid is ultimately buyers decision (who can opt not to buy);
    - Rising the question of price was inappropriate in this blogs and spoiled the otherwise useful discussion.
    Sorry for making this longer then hoped for.
  • Doug Boyle
    by Doug Boyle 2 years ago
    Rizzy, Aspect ratio is a balance in design and not necessarily of interest to most except the manufacturers and aerodynamicists. It's connotation, in general, relates to performance: i.e. The higher the aspect ratio, the higher the performance (L/D, etc). Trike wings have a limited range since they are tail-less. This is why some hang glider wings require a tail when searching for the ultimate performance. A straight wing with a mid span taper, coupled with anhedral initially and then dihedral ultimately favors the envelope, but would be hard to build and would need a tail to keep it from tumbling. Take a look at hang glider evolution to catch a glimpse of the many designs that search for the ultimate combination of wing span vs. chord (aspect ratio: span/chord).
  • Rebekah S
    by Rebekah S 2 years ago
    Is a trike that requires less muscle to move more likely to enter a stalled slipping turn?

    I would like to know if different wings are more forgiving to the pilot error induced stalled turn that becomes a spiral dive.

    It would be nice to have a wing that fit through the hangar door, but not if the cost of convenience is safety.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Riz, I think there are practical & design limitations, 10.6 sqm wing in a 409 KG MTOW... I doubt we will see anything smaller in Weight-Shift to carry that load. In fact, all manufacturers seem to be actually going to slightly bigger BUT with improved performance. I am sure Abid, Larry others .. will have good feed back... Larry's Competition wing, I think is the smaller wing he has for a 2-seat trike, at 10.9 sqm ... I do not think that size will shrink from that ... for that MTOW

    So, is there a perfect size all around wing - again assuming 2-seat and around 450 KG MTOW (1000 LB +/-) ? humm... I think the other end is quite extreme as well ... 19 sqm ... perhaps for floats, or some specific purpose. I know for sure that in Weight-Shift the ground handling is also important to consider and also how much room takes in the hangar ... many things... I don't think extremely large is that practical either unless a specific purpose in mind.

    (10.6 + 19) / 2 = 14.8 ... which is right in between .. and close to the 15 sqm you mentioned ... however, seems that the manufacturer trend for the middle of the road is more in between 12.5 - 13.5. The P&M middle of the road wings are at 13 sqm. Larry has the Discovery at 13.5 sqm which perhaps a very good middle of the road for all ... not sure about others.. but I do think they will also be a bit under 15 sqm for their higher performance middle of the road good for beginner, intermediate and advanced.

    So I will say, and I am sure many will argue and some just for the sake to argue, ... humm .. today .. perhaps around 13 sqm. Size matters (I have hear that before .. ) but also the design so not all 13 sqm will be created and perform equal... can't use just size to judge middle range performance ... handling, top speed, cruise speed, etc... but if I have to take a wild guess it will be at around 13 sqm
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Rebekah ill give you my opinion i dont think this happens that easy in any trike wing that i know. I think you have to be really ignoring roll pitch and airspeed.knowing how to get out of a spiral dive has been discussed pretty good here and on alltrikes. Hope someone else who has a broad exsperience ofwings steps in here?

    Micrea by all means post . I think that reports from actual revo owners here is important scince the origanal theme was revo accidents . But i think that beyond the scope its well safe to say that the type and model have had nothing to do with it.
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 2 years ago
    Tony - you make a good point that there are some performance changes that are unambiguous improvements. More linear and predictable behavior doesn't really have a downside.

    Are you a P&M dealer?
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Jake, Yes, I am the importer for the P&M trikes, that is what I fly.

    In an effort to not sound bias, I often try to use analogies .. like that of the 747, 777, Cessna 150 .. F16... which I attempted to use regarding performance differences, and you saw how quickly that gets nowhere as it can be easily misunderstood, of course mostly due to me not being able to convey the message properly with the analogy...

    I also owned an Airborne 582 with a Wizard III so I feel comfortable talking about that, perhaps also comfortable with the Pegasus trikes in different configurations as have many hours on those, and done a few hours with other Airborne wings... so feel fairly familiar. The ACE Magic Laser - single seat Part 103 ... which at some time I was thinking on selling in the US, Pretty much all the P&M trikes, Quik, QuikR, GT450 and GTR... not much the PulsR yet as it is being repaired now. All other wings and trikes I have test flown, quite a few, I do not feel I have flown them enough hrs or in variety of conditions, to really be qualified to comment on them, besides some personal thoughts based on the limited experience with those.

    At time, often, if I want to contribute... I have no choice but to speak about what I know very well and fly daily. Some people may see as bias and of course they can skip, but others may be interested in the information and find it helpful. So, I think is best to provide the information than not to. So I hope you do not mind my comments.
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 2 years ago
    I appreciated your comments and thought they were well thought out and helpful.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Thanks Jake.
  • Scott  Freebird Johnson
    by Scott Freebird Johnson 2 years ago
    Hi Riz & list
    Just wanted to let ya know my REVO is doing every thing it was designed to do & more. I teach full time in her. Also all of the REVO units I have sold over the years are also flying safe and sound. No problems I can see at all with the Revo . It is the most advanced trikes I have ever owned & I just love it. In my 23 years of trike flying I have seen a lot of folks get killed in trikes and 99 percent of the time it is pilot error . Even when trikes were built quite poorly, it still was pilot error that kill most trike pilots . Things are still the same , I see guys killing them self's and there passengers quite a lot now that we are in the governments Sport pilot program. We had a much better safety record in the UL days then we do now . And all of our aircraft now are top of the line aircraft so say the US government. Airborne , Evolution, P&M , Aeros , A.C. and even north wing had to beef up there buggys to conform to there standareds. I think a bit of the problem in early sport pilot was poorly trained CFIs that had a BFI in UL. That translated into poorly trained pilots that later got there BFI or CFI & poorly trained other pilots. I see a lot of pilots that fly say two times a month and go out in conditions way over there heads and then they get scared of flying and sell there trike or worse yet they go out midday & kill them self's. If your not getting at least two flights a week then your putting you self in danger . Practice makes life much easier on a trike pilot and a whole lot safer. So I see the main problem here being the human mind . Young grasshopper Riz I think the negative response you received was the wording of your blog . Walk & talk softly when you have professional pilots that you are talking to about things you do not quite understand quite yet. When you get say 200 to 300 more hr under your belt, go back and re read your blog and I think you will see what Iam saying to you. I personally I felt you were talking down to folks that tried to fill you with knowing and information. Now go get lots of practice. Fly , Fly , Fly & when ya don't fill like flying go fly. When you fill like getting on your computer GO FLY.
    By the way I see a lot of Intermediate syndrome going on around these lists now days Do your research folks & if you fill you may have this Intermediate syndrome sickness , then just stop it as it might kill you before you get to become a intermediate pilot. Spent more time flying then you do posting on this list & life will be grand. I will post some pictures of flying my REVO on a 100 mile scud run there Hell Canyon. If I felt REVO had any problems at all do you think I would fly in places like I fly on a regular basis ? Likely not . To truly live a joyous life you have to drop the fear of things . Embrace that fear & make it your best friend.
  • Scott  Freebird Johnson
    by Scott Freebird Johnson 2 years ago
    By the way it took me three nights after training just to read this winded blog. By the time I got back to reading it at night there were 20 more posts. Great to see all the passion in our sport. Fly safe
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 2 years ago
    Hi Scott

    Just read your post. Thanks for your input. I would agree with you that there was some sentiment in my writing style, I could have done a better job. I wrote the blog after hearing of Bill's passing away and I was quite shocked and sad, so maybe that contributed in the tone of my writing. But as I have indicated in the blog itself and my later entries in the blog. The object of the blog is NOT to bash Larry or Revo. Larry has contributed a tons to our industry with his innovations. The object was to find the cause of accidents (that many of us felt were NOT discussed). And that is all. I feel the blog did it's job in shedding light and some misconceptions about safety.

    I learned two things from this blog that it is NOT the trike but the pilot error and in one case (Craig) ignoring the surroundings and IFR conditions that lead to the accidents. I also learned that super trikes require a serious transition. So anyone entering wanting to own and fly needs to take responsibility of enough transition training so that they are ready to be a safe pilot.

    I don't recall if I read or heard somewhere that Andrew (who flies a Revo) after his initial training and solo, had Larry come and train him again. I don't know if this is true but if it is than it is definitely the right way of doing things for one's own safety. If as a student, we are not 100 percent sure in our abilities than it is better to have our instructors reinforce the concepts and training.

    Lastly, I respect most of you professionals, the one not on my Christmas list yet might be there someday in the future. :D
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Rizzy, Drew solo'd here in Florida and then I personally delivered his REVO to him in PA. which required a new solo since a solo is airport specific. Also since it had been 3 weeks since his solo flight, I went up with him and we flew for a few hours. The new runway at Doylestown was half as long and half as wide as what he learned on in Zephyrhills and that was initially a bit intimidating for him. So that is the second training session Drew received in his REVO.

    Flying is SERIOUS business, and it needs to be treated as such. Taking a flight lesson when you don't feel "current" may not be a bad idea. The FAA doesn't allow us to take a passenger unless we are "current" there is something to that.

    BTW I talked to a pilot today that talked to an eye witness pilot that was at the beach that day (scene of Bill's accident). The pilot did confirm (I originally thought it was a joke) that the girls on the beach were indeed topless and after several low passes he said the REVO was circling higher above and reduced power circling down and then went to full throttle below the tree line making a tight left turn and winding up in the backyard where it came to rest. This of course is hear say, but I do tend to trust a pilot's observation.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Larry so i thought it was mentioned that he had an engine out, or you mentioned it looked like the prop wasnt turning on impact. Not being contentious.just trying to put the proper pieces together in my own picture. One suggest that he lost the engine panicked and spiraled into the yard. This latest information suggest that he was distracted by girls on the beach powered up and severe sharp turn in the yard. Suggest the engine was running below the treetops. Anyway looks like poor piloting by anymeans. Would you please clarify thanks
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    It is hard for me to believe from the prop that it was spinning when the one blade struck the ground, but according to witnesses and the preliminary report it certainly sounds as though the engine was indeed running. In fact there were multiple witnesses that say they heard the engine rev up before the crash. There were also witnesses that said the engine sputtered. But most said it reved up after decsending as he got very low. Like I said, I generally have more faith in a pilots observation. But in any case, I too will wait for the final report to be made from the NTSB.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    I guess concidering the impact angle its possible with a pusher prop that there could only be damage to only one blade. The engine reving up below the trees suggest to me that there was an atempt to get out of a stall at low agl.henrys video comes to mind here . Pilot not being attentive at low agl ,not enough room to get out of it probably paniced. Concidering the history he had with you on training ,i certainly would be more likely to accept another pilots witness. I think a reasonable conclusion can be deducted that this was 100% PILOT ERROR.
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