BAR-ROOM!

Published by: monty stone on 25th Sep 2017 | View all blogs by monty stone

i wasn't sure whether to blog this or not, but apart from me  showing my pathetic ignorance about such things (as well as many others!) here goes. hoping that others out there in 'flex-wing flying-thingy' land might learn from any advice from the 'dear abby' of trikers, you know who i mean!  i recently bought a 2002 aircreation fun 14 / 447 trike. it, has a bar position problem, at trim , hands off level altitude the bar is WAY forward, so far in fact my arms are locked, making turns 'difficult'.  the  'suggestion bar' is only six inches from the 'down-thingamy ' tube. i've looked at videos on line with pilots flying identical trikes, relaxed, arms bent, smoking cigars, or eating peanut butter sammiches, with the bar halfway in the available space. i've stuffed a big cushion behind me which helps a bit, but i don't know of any trike that comes with a big cushion, so that ain't the answer! it had a '  brs' mounted behind the mast, under the engine which i took off, i weighed the front wheel weight on ground, with and without chute, me not in it and the needle barely moved, and some of those intrepid pilots i viewed had chutes, some didn't, so i don't believe thats the answer. the wing is mounted as far back as it can go, (fast position?), i tried it in the middle of the three holes, if any thing a bit worse! everything seems to be assembled correctly. no parts left over!  unless i have the wing on backwards! (how do you do a weight and balance on a trike?) none of the trikes i've flown have trimmed so far forward , so i've never had to fight this problem before. it flys straight, no signs of damage. it has 83hrs on it . i ain't no ' test-pilut', so i don't really know what to try next! hugs n farts, ............freazier nutszoff                                                                                                                                                                                                                           ps, don't anyone out there call me 'tyrannosaurus arms' my buds here in 'rain country' are already using that one!

Comments

30 Comments

  • Tom Currier
    by Tom Currier 26 days ago
    Same problem. Got longer front wires, shorter rear ones, problem solved.
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 26 days ago
    Hi tom, good suggestion, but what is the cause?
  • Tom Currier
    by Tom Currier 26 days ago
    Short arms, bar too far away.......

    In my case there were apparently special wires for a Cygnet and I had the standard, Northwing Mustang 3 ones. Something about the way the trike hangs? I know I've got a lower ass end than most trikes but that would make the problem just the opposite???? I don't know but at any rate, the bar moved to a more comfortable position for me by swapping the control wires out.
  • Frank Dempsey
    by Frank Dempsey 24 days ago
    Wow, glad to see I'm not the only one with the Fun14 Racer 447 bar out problem. I was thinking about drilling another hole forward of the current fast position but reluctant since I don't fly this trike very much. It is annoying though. Who fabricated your wires. I know Neil Bungard is the AC importer. I'm the imported for Comelli pressurized chutes. I have one installed on the racer right under the seat. I'll have to check out the possibility of moving that forward. I believe the trike nose lands high also. Heading out to Monument Valley (Bluff, UT) for a flyin so will start looking into some options here. Let's stay in contact. Frank Dempsey, Email ulwing@newmexicotrikes.com
  • Todd Halver
    by Todd Halver 24 days ago
    Feel free to reach out to Neil Bungard for Air Creation manufacturer factory advice in this situation. aircreation@flash.net
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 24 days ago
    I recon you are all suffering from the "Yorkshire disease" which is short arms long pockets, a lifetime of being unable to reach your wallets has resulted in shrinking arms.
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 24 days ago
    hey phillip my buds are already calling me tyranosaurus arms, todd i sent a begging (for a cure) e mail to neil, meanwhile i've built some temporary split spacers to move da wing more backly-wards , gonna try it this weekend. frank, don't drill no 'oles, unless the factory says! i'm even reluctant to make up different wires, but i can't make the little beast turn with my arms stretched out elbows locked. i've considered losing 100# but without amputation that ain't a quick remedy. my knuckles drag on the ground when i walk, so arm length ain't the cause.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 24 days ago
    If the front strut has been modified with a longer one that will cause the bar out problem as well. Or possibly the wing is trimming at to high of an AOA due to improper batten profile etc.
  • John Smith
    by John Smith 24 days ago
    Yes, it's necessary to know the actual speed at which this unit is trimming to identify if it's flying too slow (like you're pushed way out) or if it's really just a bar position issue. If it is in fact trimming at the correct speed you can get the modified wire set as mentioned, or do what I once did: have a shop bend you a new basetube with a reverse bow in it, bringing the center closer to your tummy.
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 24 days ago
    larry, wouldnl't a longer front strut not fit, unless the keel was bent down.? the strut fits perfectly. can't say about the battern shape, it is trimmed fairly slow, i neglected to view the hall meter, i'm afraid i fly by bar feel, more than instrements. but it 'felt' like 40mph! next time i'll see what the 'hall' says. john, i ain't pushing the bar way out, hands off it stays way out! i'm calling that 'trim'. those bent bars used to be called race bars, but i suppose it could be worn backwards, then called 'space bars'. i'm trying to send e mail pics to neil, but i may finish up mailing pics of the trike bits by snail mail. this computer stuff leaves me in the dust sometimes!
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 23 days ago
    Perhaps the easiest way to tell if it's simply trimming slow is if the trike takes off reasonably short as it should. Better yet measure the keel angle with the bar all the way out and verify that angle. That will verify your cables are correct.

    If it is trimming slow is it hard to pull the back during flight? Does it seem over pitch stable? I have seen this on some wings that as they age they trim slower and slower. How does the haul back feel? Is it overly easy to pull back? I suspect sail tension could be your problem, but checking the batten profile would be the #1 thing to check first. Also the reflex bridal, are the lines extra tight?

    Sometimes a wing has a turn and the pilot flattens the battens out towards the tip on the high wing. This will cause the wing to trim slower. Just checking the battens for symmetry usually can uncover if someone did something like that.

    You may need to tighten the sail by lengthening your leading edges 1/4" or so. I think there is an adjustment for that on the wing.
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 23 days ago
    Wow Larry, that's a hellova lot to take in! I a'nt the sharpest knife in the drawer! I've put everything back to 'stock' I put the BRS back on, wing as far back as the holes will allow. It only has 83 hrs (on tach and log book) and the trilam looks in 'crispy' good shape. No signs of damage, and it does fly straight. I don't have a battern profile to check against, and the previous owner said his bar position was comfortable and that it flew 'normally'. I am 100# heavier than he is, but with that extra weight on the cg wouldn't that only require more power to stay at trim? I only get to fly on Saturdays and rain is fore cast but hope to 'get it up' then! The trike I mean! Thanks for the input, it's beginning to look like a pair of 'home-made training bars' might be my next move, I'm reluctant to change the factory settings, after all many French guys fly this trike model without bitching.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 23 days ago
    Monty, you said the "wing back as far as the holes allow." Let's talk about the hang block position instead (I know it's all relative...). It sounds like you need to move the hang block forward. That will cause the wing to trim faster and the bar to trim further back in flight.
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 23 days ago
    Yeah Larry, is the glass half full or half empty? I maybe wrong (or mistaken?) but when ground adjusting the hang point, the trike and hang bracket would not move, only the wing would move , back for faster, I believe it's semantics, but as long as we all are on the same page!!! Less area ahead of the hang point =more speed and more power required to fly at trim? Is there a simple relationship between say one inch movement of the hang position is equal to say, three inches at the control bar? I suppose the law of leverage comes into play then.., theres always something!
  • Frank Dempsey
    by Frank Dempsey 23 days ago
    My student bought this trike from ** a few years ago. Supposedly, it only had 100 hours on it...Right. When we got it set up, I grabbed the trailing edge and made a fist. The sail crumpled in my hand so I ordered a brand new sail for the owner and we installed it. It flies great, just a little uncomfortable with the bar out there. I flew this trike for a Homeland security task in heavy (30mph) wind all day in heavy turbulence. After three 10 day sorties, I decided to buy it from my student and use it as a trailering trike. I trailer it to about 5 flyins a year, probably only putting 25 yours a year on it. It cruises at 40 mph. Not hard to pull in. It will start to stall with the bar all the way out. This seems normal. Getting the kingpost plugged in on setup is a trick. The cross bar needs to be positioned about 1/2 way back, then it's easy. Now that I'm familiar with it, I can set it up and preflight in about 40 minutes. I don't have a batten chart though so guess I'll give Mia a call. The speed bar is an interesting idea. It seems to fly tail heavy so maybe my fat ass is the problem. Perhaps a longer compression strut would help. I'll call Neil first. I haven't spoken to him in a long while. We have a bunch of new pilots that need the 16 hour maintenance class which he teaches. If we have an Albuquerque class, anyone out there that would commit to attend? I'll start putting a list together.
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 23 days ago
    Hi frank, what model trike was it?
  • Frank Dempsey
    by Frank Dempsey 23 days ago
    Air Creation Racer Fun 14 with 447.
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 23 days ago
    Frank, at trim my bar is only about six in from front strut, way out from a comfortable place. I'm a 'portly' 265# probably one reason for my dellema, most videos I've seen are of 'littler' guys, although one Guatemalan pilot has a passenger sitting behind him sitting on the gas tank, apparently! It certainly LOOKS like a racer single place. I'm in awe of you flying a slow wing in such nasty conditions, not that I plan on doing it! I did fly a racer back in 1993 at Kemmeries the day I soloed and don't recall any bar reach problems, but I was 60# lighter, and a lot younger!
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 23 days ago
    It is a very common problem when overloading a wing that the control bar will trim very far forward with too slow a trim speed. The solution normally is to move to Hang block further forward.

    When the wing is loaded heavily the leading edges flex due to the sail load. When this happens, the sail increases washout and loses lift in the tips which is aft of the CG causing the higher trim AOA. If you look at the hang point on the Cygnet with NW 19 and look at the same 19m on non float trike the hang point is about 3" different.
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 23 days ago
    Larry, then building different length wires wouldn't be as effective as 'dragging the hang block closer to the pointy bit of the wing'. Problem with the ac 14 is that the hang strap is located in front of the hang bracket forward limit stop, I built a split PVC sleeve intending to clamp the two halves around the keel one inch ahead of the point where the factory stop is.
    But the hang strap would have to fit around the sleeve, approx. One eight inch thick so would be reduced in 'hang' distance a little. I know only enough about this subject/ to be dangerous! The split sleeve three in long would have four heavy duty ss hose clamps around them. I don't wanna do any non reversible alterations, all I wanna do is fly the little beast!
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 23 days ago
    I member seeing, years ago, on a AC promo video a factory test pilot flying a trike with a 'duplicate ' control bar mounted five ins or so behind the regular bar. Maybe that might work!
  • wexford air
    by wexford air 23 days ago
    Hey Monty, why not pat a few pics of the wing and hang block so we can have a look. Get a model to pose with it and we might even reply with ideas! If you had a video of a flight it might be even better to make a call on it
  • Lindsay Mannix
    by Lindsay Mannix 23 days ago
    this sounds like all the issues of adapting a hangie to a light trike ..

    bar back (lower wires) 100 mm or move seat forward and re angle dangle.(can be complicated)

    watch out for anhederal change when/if you do the control wire change which can be addressed by base bar(control bar) length .
  • Frank Dempsey
    by Frank Dempsey 23 days ago
    I hear you Larry. Yes Monte, the last time I looked at moving the hang block forward it wasn't a trivial thing. For one, I have to drill a hole forward and the hang strap is in the way. We have exactly the same setup. My weight is about 220# but I have a light storage compartment below the engine and a Comelli chute under the seat. The more I think about it now, the more I remember the trike nose is a bit high and sitting back in the seat means I have to reach for the base tube and at the same time use stomach and neck muscles to sit up. The speed is perfect at 40. If I pull in to my belly, I can get it to around 50. It's not too bad because I only fly for about an hour, mostly hands off. Just a little uncomfortable.
  • Frank Dempsey
    by Frank Dempsey 23 days ago
    On another note and more basic...I need to get a batten chart. do you have one?
  • Andy Hughes
    by Andy Hughes 23 days ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19420M5g3Oo
  • Frank Dempsey
    by Frank Dempsey 23 days ago
    I spoke with Mia today. We're going to aim for an Albuquerque based repairman class at the end of January. We have about 7 people here that want it. I've helped Neil organize two others previously. This will be a third ABQ class. If you are interested, call Mia. Google Air Creation Bungard to get his number.
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 23 days ago
    i posted a pic of the hang bracket of the little beastie. the strap might be compromised if the wing is moved BACK! (for the hang bracket to move forward several guys would have to support the wing while the bracket is moved FORWARD! You colonials are stubborn! i'm not surprised our king george 3rd gave you your political freedom ! a bunch of rowdy trouble-makers!
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 23 days ago
    i'v started making a 'backward extending parallel control bar', i have a whole bunch of scrap tubing from my northwing , it'll be like powersteering, (i think!) one reason i'm snivelling about bar position is both my shoulders have been opperated on, neither opp was a success, so my shoulders ache all the time they are used , especially when stretched out, or over head. 50yrs wrenching and FAR TOO MANY ACCIDENTS involving joint damage have left their mark, sniff and snivel , but i 'aint ready to sit and wait for god!, yet.
  • monty stone
    by monty stone 23 days ago
    wex, the pic shows the problem, air creation didn't expect fat bastards like me to fly them! i'll post a video when i can fly it without snivelling!
Please login or sign up to post on this network.
Click here to sign up now.