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  • Beto Di Benedetto
    by Beto Di Benedetto 2 years ago
    Excelent trike!! and with a BMW engine!!! great!!
  • Marc Habermann
    by Marc Habermann 2 years ago
    Aeros Profi TL at higher speed?
    I would like to take the chance to ask for others experiences with mentioned wing. As I am located in Germany my language skills are not that perfect, sorry. Hope my concern will be understood.
    I am using a rebuilt Profi TL on an Aeros2 trike carriage equipped with a BMW plant (90hp). The trike/wing flies great. Both, pitch and roll behavior feels very good. The wing has winglets as well as the trike has big wheelpants ex works. Adjustments like sprog settings or CG are matching manufacturer instruction. The wing is originally equipped with an electric trim device, which also works without any problem. As I´m still quite new to the sport (90hrs) there is still a lot to learn and certainly to improve for me.
    Up to 70mph (110 km/h) everything is perfect. The wing flies straight and level like an arrow. Also dead stick sailing is no problem, straight like a monster hangglider. Nevertheless as soon as I speed up further full throttle while maintaining level flight (>70mph to max.speed at around 90mph) the left wing starts to drop a little (ca.10 deg.?) while simultaneously the carriage begins to yaw to the right side. That feels kind of strange to me as it has to be decided whether to correct flight path (dropping the left wing even more) or correcting the left wing drop (resulting in an even more right-hand turn).
    The same happens while take off slightly loaded at full throttle. Maintaining straight path after liftoff requires reduced throttle (going solo). With added pax everything is fine again.
    I just ask myself, if described behavior is normal. Not to be misunderstood. Normally I cruise at a speed of max. 115km/h (72mph), so this high speed behavior is no big issue for me. It just feels strange and therefore I would like to hear comments of other Profi TL pilots.
    Thanks for any comment!
  • Scott Williams
    by Scott Williams 2 years ago
    Hi Marc, I can't tell from the picture (really nice Trike BTW. Love the BMW on there!), does your wing have the new pressure release vents? Those are two vented ports on each wing side, up near the leading edge. Each is roughly 30cm by 6cm.
  • Marc Habermann
    by Marc Habermann 2 years ago
    Hi Scott, thanks;-)
    I have no vents. The wing/sail was made 2014.
  • Frank Dempsey
    by Frank Dempsey 2 years ago
    Hi Mark. You're experiencing normal flywheel torque. Scott Williams, Fred Waller, Herbert Perico, Elijah Tate and I recently purchased 2015 Profi TL's from the factory. I experience the exact same response as you note with my 912 100 hp Apollo Delta Jet. Fred actulally offset his engine mounts 1 in (250 mm) laterally and was able to counter this moment that occurs at high speed. Each and every wing is test flown in the Ukraine. Each wing is unique. If you have trouble, I talk to the test engineer (Surgey) at Aeros. For example, my wing was initially flying too fast, 75 mph at cruise at the slowest CG location. The control bar was too close to me. I wanted a 60 mph cruise and a more comfortable control bar position. Based on the test report for my wing, Surgey told me to remove the pressure ports and recurve batten #11 to #2. 15 minutes later, my wing was flying 60 mph. Fred Waller's adjustments were different. Also, after about 20 hours, the wings slow down a little. You have the best wing out there your English is very good.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Yes Frank is correct. If you had a 912 you would be feeling the exact opposite effect. Offsetting the thrust line is so important in my opinion, I am surprised the vast majority of trikes have their engines in the dead center. Move you entire engine to the starboard side by 3/4" and you should be close to solving this effect. this effect is not only inefficient in straight and level flight, but causes you to not be able to turn well to the left.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Frank you should report this back to Sergey. He listens to positive input. He modified the batten chart based on my findings nearly a decade ago. the original batten chart had heavy reflex in the center and higher camber in the tips. This would be a nice improvement on the Aeros carriage. Or he could go with a fully adjustable mount like the REVO.
  • Mikael Markow
    by Mikael Markow 2 years ago
    I suggested this to Aeros in 2010.
    They replied that thy tried it but recommended to mount the engine straight in the centre.

    Though, I am quite sure that an angle/offset would solve most of the problem.
  • Marc Habermann
    by Marc Habermann 2 years ago
    many thanks! I understand that described phenomena is normal/due to trike design. Further I will check the possibilities to adapt the thrust line.
    Larry exactly this limited ability to turn left, especially at low level after takeoff I don`t like that much.

    Some may ask why it took me so long to recognize this torque issue at higher speeds? (Yes, I used full throttle also in the past). Well, my first Profi TL (which was later badly damaged during taxiing) was trimmed that low speed that it was hard to reach more than 70 mph full pulled. The actual one flies nice between ~40-85 mph offering acceptable roll stiffness. Very fascinating how parameters interact and lead to totally different flying wings...
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Its been a standard in the aviation industry ever since the right brothers to offset for engine tourqe between 1-3 degrees.I know that airbourne dosent do it. Taking off with a xt- 912 you have to stab to the right . Sometimes your arm can get tired.i cant for the life of me understand why they wouldnt offset ,its such a simple fix.as far as i know revo and tanarg do offsets for tourqe.
    Btw that is an absolute beautiful trike. One day ill have a new all white 912.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    I actually told Sergey at Aeros how he can fix this issue (torque related turn) on his trike in 2008. He listened but he obviously has not adjusted the thrust line or may be this trike is older. Plus BMW may turn the other way than Rotax 91x series.
  • Mikael Markow
    by Mikael Markow 2 years ago
    Marc, please tell us if you have any success in getting Aeros make an engine mount with offset/angle. I also have an Aeros-2 with BMW.
  • Mikael Markow
    by Mikael Markow 2 years ago
    Larry, you recommend to move the entire engine 3/4".
    Is that better than to angle the engine 1.5 to 2 degrees?
    Or is a combined offset/angle better?
  • TL Triker
    by TL Triker 2 years ago
    I also fly an Aeros 2 with Profi TL and have the same issue as Marc. If you refer to the link below (not my trike or video, but for your reference) you can see the tendency. Skip to 6:10 (take off) and 8:15 (climb) and you will see the nose right tendency and the bar displaced to the left on climb to maintain straight course. I definitively have to reduce power after take off to minimize the nose right tendency. I am planning on adjusting engine offset in the future to see if this helps cure the nose illness.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLv1mmWLo-M
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    if you angle the motor it is important that the center of the prop is the "pivot point" you should not rotate the motor from its core (center) this will effectively move the prop to the wrong side of the aircraft. this is a common mistake. The REVO uses an angled motor mount with the prop centered. 1-2.5 degrees should get you in the ball park.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Larry you mentioned the revo has a variable ajustment for the degrees on engine for reducing tourque.Seems like a good idea and i havnt heard of anyone else do that. So is that so you can fine tune for differnt wings or maybe prop pitches or length?
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    White Eagle, yes exactly. Mostly for prop and pitch changes. Then in flight you can change the aerodynamics of the trike via adjustable wheel pants ("rudders") which help aid the reduction of the P factor as the prop reduces its AOA as the trike speeds up. Lastly the hang block is also adjustable up to 2 degrees in yaw eith direction which is ground adjustable.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    We use simple washers to slightly fine adjust the angle of the engine to fine tune it and the engine mount is welded for a specific angle. This angle depends on engine mount and mast stiffness as well
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Thanks thats pretty good attention to detail for both of you. Not trying to put down airbourne my 503 redback tourqe is not an issue. But on the 912 airbourne xts ive flown it is. Particularly ive noticed it with the new aerrow wing? Airbourne is a great company but i just dont get why they wouldnt offset for tourqe?
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    So, offset engine trust line to shift chassis one way, then action rudders in the spats to offset chassis the other way? ... what is the point?

    99% of the flight may likely be at trim speed, 80+ MPH in P&M trikes ... and not full power ... makes sense to me to have the engine set for a straight trust line which works best 99% of the time. What am I missing?
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    As Tony is getting at. A low power setting at a faster speed reduces the P factor to its dead minimum. And this may be at "cruise" as the Plane increases power it increases speed. Airspeed cancels some P factor and reducing power cancels some P factor

    With a corrected thrust line the trike is usually perfect at all power settings at slower speeds but as speed builds, the offset in the thrust line now creates a similar problem in the opposite direction. But this is easy to control. Because speed is the common contributor to the "over compensation" of the thrust line at high speed, a FIXED trim tab will counter this as speed increases. Abid has successfully been using this on his Apollos. This makes the trike fly straight at all speeds.

    So in other words abids Apollo will yaw left at any speed with his 912. He then offsets the engine that "thrusts" his nose to yaw right. This works on take off and climb, but without the trim tab as the pilot level off and increases to 94 MPH the P factor of the nose yawning left is reduced about 50%. The thrust which was equal to counter 100% of the P factor is still at 100% now making the trike fly similar to a straight thrust line at high speed, but exactly opposite now flying with the left wing down and nose yawing to the right. So a fixed trim tab is installed on the left wheel pant so that as speed is increased the trim tab now counters the offset thrust line. The relationship between airspeed and the trim tab effect and Pfactir reduction are all in sync making it fly perfectly straight at all speeds.

    Electric rudders allow the pilot to correct for imperfections in the wing and make tuning the wing no longer needed.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    I feel that if we offset the thrust line to take care of that 1% of the flight (full power climb on take off) .. then, that will be detrimental to the other 99% of the flight... going 80++ mph at 80% power ... but it seems you do not agree.

    Humm... be interesting to have a chassis with some offset thrust line in the engine and take it to 100 mph trim, and see what is does... because if it now pushes the chassis to one side at cruising ... I rather not have the offset. But I do not have a chassis with the thrust line offset so I can't tell for sure.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    The thrust line offset is fixed, the torque and p-factor is not ... so I don't understand how a fixed thrust line offset can affect equally when the other variables do change... that is what I am confused about.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Shifting the chassis to one side using trim tabs, to correct for wing trim issues in flight ... well, if that is done then now you are flying with a shifted carriage ... I just don't get it. P&M uses lines and pulley's ... but that is because the best place to correct the trim issue it at the source, the wing itself.

    If you trim the wing in the ground... you do not go and twist the chassis... you adjust the wing right? so it is logical that the best way to achieve such in the air is the same ... adjust the wing not the chassis. It is just more effective, even if it is done with lines and pulleys, I am sure there are lines also to do the trim tabs... anyhow, the right way for me is to adjust at the source (the wing) and perhaps more methods will come up in time to do such.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Tony, you are missing it. The thrust line and trim tab make the carriage fly straight. When the carriage is straight the wing billow is equal and the trike flies straight.

    So you put a trim tab on you RIGHT wheel pant and make your P&M fly perfectly straight at one speed. Pick 80 MPH. Your front strut will be perpendicular to the horizon at this speed. Or choose 100 MPH. But the trim tab will only work 100% at one power setting and one airspeed. With an offset thrust line you can be at 100% perfect at every Power setting and with a trim tab AND offset thrust line you can be at 100% at every power setting and every speed.

    Not to put down the P&Ms, but if there is anything I don't like about them is that they have so much Pfactor. I'm sure it's something you can get used to and become desensitized to, but really when you are used to an aircraft that flies straight, something that is "slipping" during every takeoff is really annoying. The Airborne is the same thing and obviously the Aeros as well.

    My point is there is a fix. Cessna is aware of it, Cirrus is aware and REVO is aware. What's the question here?
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Tony "The Source" is an unequal billow. Moving he carriage back in line and centering the keel is fixing the problem at the source. Twisting the outboard sprogs and keeping the keel offset due to P factor is a highly Asymetrical wing that has not been fixed at the source. Taking your foot off the gas is a way to fix the problem at the source. There is a reason the REVO uses the rudders. It is to fix the problem in the wing at the source. Sorry to disagree. But I am sure of what I am saying. Run all of this by Bill. I give these secrets away publically so that Others can benefit.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    I was indeed missing it because I did not realize that the trim tab was also being used in conjunction with the offset thrust line. One correcting for power, the other correcting for airspeed. I thought it was just offset of thrust line... which alone would not account for the other changing variables.

    So I assume for a perfect aligned chassis at all speeds and power settings, then besides fixed offset thrust line, you would need to adjust the trim tab depending on speed.. or have a fixed setting that is kind of neutral, but not perfect at all speeds?

    Well, certainly it will be desirable to have a perfectly aligned chassis 100% of the flight and with no trade offs in performance and others .... and we can't really get rid of torque as we use engines that produce torque, and we can't completely eliminate some p-factor in climbs, so must find ways to counteract them, specially when they affect the most.

    Have you found any less desirable trade off at all of counteracting those forces by using trim tabs and engine trust power offset? I mean, in other areas of flight ... like cruise at high speed, stalls in level flight or turns, banking, slow flight, power off glide, etc... ?
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Glad to clarify Tony, As I mentioned the relationship of speed on P factor and a trim tab tend to be quite equal. So from what I could see, Abids new DJ2 flys perfectly straight at all speeds and power settings.

    Flying the REVO with the electric in-flight trim tabs and you don't even think about P factor or tuning the wing. If you feel ANYTHNG, anything at all, you just touch the button.

    The real trick is to build the trike asymmetrical (if you only use one rotation direction motor) and then you don't need a trim tab technically. But.... if your wing has a left turn in it then running the left wheel pant trim tab flatter will fix the problem. So the trim tab is simple, effective and not just for P factor. I love them. So simple I kick myself for not doing it sooner...
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Larry i dont mean to keep butting in here.Does this relationship between the offset t/l and the trim tab and billow equilization haveanything to do with what henry showed me.that in making a turn and rolling out of it you just come back to center on the bar instead of overcompinsating and then back to center.this impressed me.I think this is one of the reasons that henry told me that you fly the revo different.Not saying much but i use to design rc sailplane kits and sold them in hobby lobby. One thing i do know is a well designed airplane will come back to center stick quickly without over compensating.So birds like the sukoi or xtra have this quality built in by good static margine.(vertical aera side view behind the c/l . This causes a weather vien efect producing stability. Something ive always said a h/g needed. It seems to me you are acomplishing this .when henry told me you just come back to center i was impressed but would like to know how that is acomplished?

    I dont know much about the dj2 does it also carry the same requirements.Abid can beto fix his t/l by welding a washer to the proper angle?
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    So also drag increases exponetually with speed. So that at slower speeds the tab on the wheel pants doesnt effect much but at higher speeds is effectual. Is this correct?
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    White Eagle ... overcompensating and back to center to roll back from a turn does not sound right for any wing :-( ... everything that I have flown ... including R/C sailplanes ... love those ... you just roll back to center....

    BTW ... I wonder what R/C sailplanes you did? ... I have had a few, most recent got into the real sophisticated discuss hand launch and those are great. The good ones quite expensive with hollow core carbon wings, very light yet very fast and float forever... had some electrics sailplanes, did some winch and the rubber band and also had some slope soaring sailplanes
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Larry, got to make a trip to test fly your wing, trim tabs, etc.

    I have been flying the GTR with the roll trim and it is quite effective as well. Much more than I even anticipated. A very tiny movement to the lever will fix mild turns quite effectively as well. So it seems that both systems use different approach, but both system work on resolving the in-flight trimming ... great new addition to these performance wing.

    The GTR is a robust wing. It does not really go out of trim one it sets in, but because of the great wide speed range, you may need to use the roll trim if you take it to either end of the envelope... if you had it trim nice for a fast flight, if you slow down a lot, you may need to use the in flight trim a bit. Thta is what I have found so far.

    I still think that attacking the problem at the source, which is the wing, is an effective way to manage that situation, so I am not at all disappointed P&M chose to add the roll trim to the STARS trim instead of working on the chassis or other areas.

    BTW, your statement in the webpage, RIVAL S section, regarding creative designs using pulleys and ropes to improve handling at low speed, and such sacrifice efficiency reducing glide and increasing stall is not correct ... if you are referring to the P&M STARS trim (the older systems many used do .. like the lines raising the trailing edge used in older Airborne and Q2 wings), the new STARS trim do not raise the trailing edge, just slight increase when slow (or asymmetrical increase when roll) to the washout rods. It does not change the stall characteristics and it does not affect the glide ratio. So I am not sure why you mention it does. Perhaps you think that the trailing edge is also being raised ... like the old days... which is not.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Corsette
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Be good to specify because it almost sounds like STARS because the mention of new and pulleys and lines ... I was reading about the RIVAL S, saw that .. and sounded just like talking about the STARS... which is not the case at all .... so I was quite surprised because you know that slight increase in washout will not change your stall or glide ... then for a moment I thought you were talking about the old trailing edge lines .. but you mentioned new trim ... and those are certainly not new!


    The Corsette ... interesting concept... but it does change the shape quite drastically to achieve the intended ... and perhaps it is a bit over complicated. A simpler VG with very small travel (like what used in Hang Gliders) may have achieved same with less complications...

    The STARS asymmetrical washout movement is extremely cleaver. It is using the already built in movement of the floating cross bar, and that blew my mind! ... it is "free energy" ... we all fly with a floating cross bar, and Bill figured a way to use that free energy from the movement of the chassis and cross bar to enhance the roll without sacrificing other important performance and safety characteristics ... all else in the STARS is good .. but that part, in my opinion, it is really cleaver.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Tony it's true these complex systems to me undefy flex wings. Ropes pulleys and vertical stabilizers. But that is just my own feeling. You can get responsive, light roll, straight line tracking, roll trim and speed trim however you want. IF my wing can do all of this without complexity, I like it better. That's just my own preference. But a difference worth noting.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Larry, there is perhaps two different ways of looking at the subject, and perhaps I see it somewhat different... there are always compromises in aviation and a proven basic design (frame/sail/battens) can only go so far ... beyond, without some addition to the design, likely creates compromise.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Tony, you have an official invitation to come fly the RIVAL S.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Thanks L. Looking forward to and hope I can go soon. :-)
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Talking simple Larry... Haha ..,the pinacle of simplicity is the Quik line. :-) ... Just a couple of lines and a pulley ... And that makes it complex!!? I should take that as a complement. :-) I think you have not seen you Revo up close lately. ;-)
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Tony yes it is just come back to center. Let me refraze this. Sometimes henry has some language barriers. When discussing the revo with him .he told me everything i was doing before hand was wrong. He then was telling me about just coming back to center. I may have misinterpreted what he was talking about. I have not flown a revo ,henrys is the first one ive seen. Let me refraze it this way.henry said that he had to go to larrys to get some training on flying the revo. He was like i had to throw out what i learned before.and relearn to fly larrys way. And that flying the revo is different.So i asked him how he said well you just come back to center. He spoke very highly of larrys training.Ive always thought henry a very good pilot even when he had his tanarg.My wife has flown with him and i dont put her in the backseat with just anyone. So i guess the real question is how is the revo different to fly than other trikes.what is the additional training required? If you remember tony yes i was one who maybe criticized revo for its price. So in favor of trying to change my attitude and realize that i may not like how trikes are getting so exspensive .Iam trying to learn a little and give larry the credit do and understand that although revo may not be my personal choice it is an exstreamly well designed and airworthy aircraft and there are people that can afford it.I mean i would love to own a 912 but to be honest i cant afford it.

    Next i make no claim of being highly educated in aerodynamics. Iam a fair but safe pilot with no awards or great achievements in years of hang gliding other than iam still here.
    All my life ive been around and worked for aviations greats. Sometimes i name drop and i think some people dont like me for it. Iam kinda proud that my dad was friends with orville wright or bought bob hoovers pt-17. Or that ive known buzz aldrin and niel armstrong .Done work for dick and burt rutan ,chuck yeager,bob hoover,larry newman, ben ,maxie aderson for the transatlantic baloon crossings, bryan allen was a friend. George applebee a very famous sailplane designer. My point is just being around some of the aviation greats was a big part of my life.I was proud to take care of chuck yagers jet. Converse with him at my desk. If i had a chance to do it over i would head straight to aeronauticle school.Someday tony if i live long enough id like to say yah i knew tony c or larry mednick or kameron belvins.for me its an honor to have even known some of these guys. I love achievement, my only achievments have been overcoming obsticals.
    My rc kits were called the sky fox and the airace.Both slope soarers. The airace was all balsawood construction.the sky fox was one of the first all foam construction built on a ply wafer. I sold 63 kits.my x made me stop doing it because of the mess. Foam kits now sell in the millions. I cant remember if it was tower or hobby lobby magazine i sold them in. Right now i have an asw18 sailplane. My favorite was going out to the hang glider launch with super cheatas doing combat. That was fun. I also did these little gliders you shoot up with a rubber sling shot called skybats .wire cut foam flying wings. Sold a bunch of those. Yes the discus that os way cool.

    Tony i dont know why rc is not mentioned much for training it a great way to learn alot .
  • Ed Cooper
    by Ed Cooper 2 years ago
    It's hard for me to believe that Billy Brooks would overlook trust line offset on the P&M trikes. I would bet he has a reason for not including it. Wish he was on this group list to explain his thoughts on that. I don't really have a objection to the P factor on my Q912 but if it could be eliminated so much the better.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Bill Brooks knows Thrust angle and offset can help. I know because I told him exactly what we did to minimize the effect of propeller torque effect. His idea and answer was that in a trike where the wing keel can roll relative to the trike carriage, the prop torque effect will cause a roll on the carriage in opposite sense to the direction of prop rotation and when it reaches a certain point it will equalize and stabilize at that point. So basically the carriage will hang to one side at this point per third law of motion. That of course can also be enough to cause a weight shift effect and differential billow in a light handling wing and cause a turn. However if the wing is rigged up and designed in such a way that it compensates, the roll can go away. Now the pilot hangs slightly to one side as carriage hangs to one side but according to Bill pilot can get used to it pretty quickly. I disagreed with him. I never got used to it. It always bothers me. But that is what he thinks. Also try taking Bill's own wings off on P&M built carriages and put some other wing on and you will see a much greater turning tendency under power due to torque as those wings are not made to compensate for the billow differential.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    BTW, same with Sergey Dorbeshev of Aeros. I have personally told him what he could do to try and solve his Aeros 2 912 torque issue. He prefers to hang the engine straight. The secret is the stiffer the mast the less you will notice the symptom of propeller torque effect on a trike
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    That is a true fact. The stiffer the mast, the less Pfactor effects the trike. Could this be the real reason Airborne requires the triple sleeved mast on their XT when equipped with an Arrow wing? I asked, they denied it...

    I have noticed a big difference just with our new CNC hang blocks requiring less engine offset. The P&M uses a box tube mast for this reason.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    White Eagle, Henry's wing is not roll stabile. It is roll neutral. What I believe Henry was referring to is "high siding" the turns which is bad. Example: if you want to roll right move the controls left. many pilots then move the bar right to stop the roll. This is "high siding" the wing. The better method is to push forward which will also stop the roll and "coordinate" the turn. This is one of the main things I taught Henry. I have had people email me telling me how well this works on just about every wing out there. This is explained more in detail on my 25 minute YouTube video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3cUl8HlcPKA
  • Scott Williams
    by Scott Williams 2 years ago
    Dang!! Larry that explains exactly what I've been adjusting to. Coming from a 19M NW I moved the bar right to stop the roll. Never noticed much effect from bar push. I noticed a big difference when I shifted to the Profi TL. My old habits of how to fly weren't cutting it. I figured out (after several hours of trial and error) that the method you describe of pushing out a bit, was much smoother and it did feel more smooth/coordinated. It's really great to hear you describe it as I thought I might be doing something weird.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 2 years ago
    Profi is a pretty straight forward wing with what I would consider "stiff" roll and it gets effected in turbulence much more (probably 40 to 50% more) than the wings I fly now. I don't know that you have to push out on the Profi TL at all to stop the roll. I certainly did not see that but pushing out slightly when your roll action is coming to an end is probably a way that works on almost any wing. More on some and less on some others so its a good way to go. Profi is one of those wings that you could technically get away without the use of this technique but it handles better with it.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    White Eagle, quite impressive set of experiences. That is very cool, that you were able to sell kits to HL and others! ... I started R/C soaring even before started Hang Gliding, and indeed the experience soaring R/C sailplanes absolutely helped me in Hang Gliding. I could visualize my HG flight and the wing flying, even though I was in the HG hanging from it!

    It helped in a more practical way, to understand and visualize energy management, speed and lift, stalls, etc. My HG friends that had no R/C sailplane experience had a bit more trouble visualizing those basic concepts. I had one friend in particular that never could quite understand the stall.

    If you have not yet done so, look into the DLG's, they are very cool and lots of fun to fly and quite a nice challenge in competition ... as you fly them in the edge of their flight envelope, and that is quite amazing and challenging
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    Ahhh thanks. Carving out the turn is something ive always done.I thought henry was talking something specific to the revo.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Larry, that sounds a lot like the U shape movement in the control bar for a turn. Pull in, shift, push out kind of thing?
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Tony, J turn is good also, but the main thing is once the wing is rolling (however it was initiated) not to try and stop it with opposite roll input. There is way more to the techniques I teach, but that is the biggest issue I see regularly limiting a trike pilot's ability to fly precisely. High siding generally causes Dutch roll and skidding. Some wings won't skid like. BioniX or QuikR and others like a Profi TL will. To me learning the technique of coordinating the turns will still improve the control on ALL wings and then allow the pilot to fly any wing.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    I roll by shifting weight, once I establish my desired bank angle, I just release the roll pressure and the weight naturally returns to center, hence maintaining the bank angle. Push out to manage speed and AOA in turn as that naturally changes with the bank.

    Not sure I understand that "High Side" thing ... but if you do not let the weight return to center then you will be increasing bank angle, even if you push out. So, I guess some pilots ten to over do it and instead of just returning to center they actually roll opposite to stop the banking?

    What I use is not much different than what is described in the FAA-H-8083-5 - Weight Shift Handbook, Section 6 page
    8:

    "C. Turn is established and maintained by moving the control bar back to the center position"
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    oh, I just add that moving the control bar back to center position does not really feel like actually shifting the control bar the other way .. is more like releasing the shifting input I did to initiate the roll .. and the weight kind of naturally returns to center ... hence stopping the rolling action and establishing the bank angle.
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    We must be talking about the same thing ... I must be getting somewhat confused by the description or terminology you use. If not, I have been flying weight-shift all wrong for 37 years :-(
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Releasing the controls will center the bar. When I say move the from bar the opposite way, I am referring to past center and using force like to turn the other direction.

    Release controls and then bump forward even a tiny bit will "coordinate" the turn. So in other words the reason I can bank 60-60-60 so fast is because I push forward every time I hit 60 then apply opposite roll force. The wrong way to do it is to skip the push out.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    So i get it larry kinda what ive always done ,a little out not alot to cordinate or carve the turn.Same as you would do in a fixed wing a little backstick presure to carve the turn.So tony isint larry talking about over correcting?I was thinking that ken in henrys video may have pushed the bar out to carve the turn but distracted pushed way to far with insuficent speed. It seems to me when iam carving a turn i push out just enough to feel some bar pressure.Usually with a relaxed grip. There is a feel in the bar through you hands to a well cordinated turn.Or at least i think so.I think its visable in your exstreme video.tony i seriously doubt you have been flying wrong for 32 years. Its so dam easy for concepts to get misconstude here. I do know that my first instructor mentioned nothing about bar out to carve the turn. I just naturaly did it from hang gliding. So the question larry of some cfis are not teaching proper cordination in turns. That should be adressed!
  • Tony  Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 2 years ago
    Well, the proper procedure is in the Weight Shift Handbook. I read a couple of times and seems correct. It also mentions to use pitch during the turn for proper coordination and speed. Why will WS-CFI be teaching differently? Te ones that I know personally do teach as described in the manual.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 2 years ago
    Yes Tony the Weight Shift Handbook was developed, edited, refined, rewritten, regenerated, and painfully reviewed by the FAA for its final publication. In fact Tony, you should be listed as a contributor for its overall content. I remember talking with you about a number of important issues leading up to its publication and I apologize not getting you into the contributors of photo credits (a long story here). I will fix this on my next printed publication.

    Yes generally the WSC Aircraft Flying Handbook is pretty good overall because it had many of the industry experts, many of which are not mentioned in the photo credits, who helped put this together.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 2 years ago
    My first instructor probably didnt mention it because i already knew how to fly from hang gliding. I had a little trouble with foot throttle so he just concentrated on my weakness.
  • Marc Habermann
    by Marc Habermann 2 years ago
    wow, many useful information collected. Thanks!
    I`d like to come back to the Pfactor theme. Yesterday at the airfield I checked that a) there is no easy way (e.g. like adding washers) to change the symmetric engine mount on my trike and b) flying with a pax, what I usually do in about 75% of my flying the Pfactor is nearly no issue for me at all. Therefore I maybe would tend to agree Tony not to overrate this story. Although modern trike design should consider offset (and some certainly do).
    The only thing I still don`t like is Pfactor while takeoff solo at full throttle. I fact, if I want to go roughly straight along the field after liftoff, I have to reduce throttle or to steep climbout. The latter is against my belief of better climbout at a gentle angle as long as being close to the ground.
    So I consider maybe adding an adjustable, simple cable operated flap to the left wheelpant to see, if there is any change/improvement. Anyway I`m only allowed to do minor modifications.
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Mark, I'm willing to bet that you get quite an improvement from the trim tab. Also try to tighten your hang bolt up with a wrench as tight as you can get it without binding the controls in pitch. These are 2 easy things to do that will be noticeable. We all look forward to hearing the results of your flight with just a simple trim tab.
  • Mikael Markow
    by Mikael Markow 2 years ago
    I notice that the trim speed of Profi TL varies a lot when delivered from factory.

    Franks wing did 120km/h (75mph) in slow position and Marcs first wing did 112km/h (70mph) at fastest trim.
    That is a huge difference!

    My wing did 100km/h (62mph) in slow position and 150km/h (93mph) in mid position.
    I have not dared to try the faster half of the trim range but it feels like the wing will speed up heavily there.
    I checked the battens to the batten drawing and they where ok.

    Aeros suggested that I rotate the rear mount for the trim mechanism 180 degrees.
    This move the trim range 30mm back on the wing keel.
    Then it will have aprox 110km/h in mid position, and be very slow in slow position..

    Aeros also suggested I could try and rotate the wing tips to the +3 position.
    This reduced the speed with almost 10km/h (6mph)

    Any ideas what makes these big differences between new wings?

    What do you think about moving the trim mechanism 30mm to the rear?
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Trim should be about 50-90 MPH give or take 5 mph.

    Reversing the HB t have the hole in the back will make a huge difference. I don't let any wings go out without tuning. Many variables can effect the trim speed. Webbing, tip twist, Haulback tension, leading edge tension, keel strap, even batten tension control trim speed.
  • Marc Habermann
    by Marc Habermann 2 years ago
    OK. I will shortly let you know, how my DIY trim tab work. Already finished in my mind so far ;-)
    Target is to realize it w/o drilling or permanent changes. Further I like to shoot a before/after vid, but needs some time...
  • Larry  Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 2 years ago
    Use 3M outdoor double sided tape. No drilling needed
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