What you should know about spiral dives

Mon, Dec 26 2016 04:44pm CST 1
Paul Hamilton
Paul Hamilton
237 Posts

Call to Action. Adding Spiral recovery Tasks to the Practical Test Standards (PTS).

Published by: Paul Hamilton on 25th Jun 2015 | View all blogs by Paul Hamilton
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Intentional or unintentional spiral dives have caused a number of fatalities throughout the world. Therefore, I have decided to pursue getting spiral dive recovery into the Practical Test Standards (PTS) so all new pilots and CFI's will start training for this important maneuver in the US and hopefully worldwide. Additionally, this will also emphasize the importance of this important safety concept for pilots and instructors while performing a flight review required for all pilots ever 24 months in the USA. If we are successful with this, we can make spiral training visible and available to all pilots in the US within 24 to 30 months.

I have contacted the FAA and discussed this addition to the PTS so here is my plan based on this conversation. It is more than likely we can achieve this so I am asking others for input to this important evolution in trike safety. All input is appreciated.

There are two specific topics that need to be achieved to accomplish this:.

1. Justification for addition to PTS

2. What specifically to test for in the PTS which will be the basis of training for spiral dive recovery.

Before we get to the specifics, let's look at the closest item in the PTS that would relate to this subject.

The PTS is located at www.faa.gov/ training_testing/ testing/ test_standards/ media/ FAA-S-8081-31.pdf or you can purchase a paper copy at http://www.pilot-stores.com/asa-practical-test-standards-sport-pilot/

In the PTS Power Off Stall Task, the turning stall task is made to simulate the base to final turn and specifies a maximum 20 degree banked stall to represent this base to final scenario with no more than a +/- 10 degree variation. Hopefully this maneuver is thought by instructors to cover this base to final stall/spiral avoidance as a starting point to avoid this situation altogether in the first place. Typically the inside wing falls and the recovery is the same as a spiral recovery - reduce angle of attack (AOA) while leveling the wing, EXCEPT, repeat EXCEPT, you add throttle to recover at a slow speed and bank angle below 45 degrees RATHER than let off the throttle to recover in a spiral dive when the nose is pointed down. Significantly different recovery methods based on the bank angle.

Back to the JUSTICICATION before we get to the specifics of the spiral recovery maneuver. I can easily write a paragraph describing the problem but specific instances involving pilots in accidents is important to make this happen. I will put this into another blog/article to keep it separate and on track since this may create some discussion on this topic. Here we will focus on the specifics of the PTS task here.

Where should this be in the PTS as a task? Well it can be either in the Slow Flight and Stalls Area after the whip stall and tumble awareness OR in the Emergency Operations Area. The Slow Flight and Stalls Area is similar to the tuck tumble task for WSC/trikes and similar to the Spin Awareness for the Airplane Task which is in the slow flight and stalls for airplane. The Emergency procedures is appropriate since it is an Emergency recovery procedure. Ideas and input as to where the appropriate place in the PTS are appreciated from CFI's and DPE's.

The problem is how I teach this is not easily replicated for student to practice nor testing during a checkride. I now teach this with a two step process:

1. Get into a very high 60 degree bank and recover from there. Nose falls and the recovery procedure is initiated by simultaneously decreasing angle of attack, level wings and reduce throttle. Additionally at a very high bank angle, push out to demonstrate the stall and how this will initiate a spiral as the wing drops and things get worse. Again, the recovery procedure is initiated by simultaneously decreasing angle of attack, level wings and reduce throttle.

2. Get into a steep bank angle (example 45 degree bank performance maneuver) and bumping the bar to a higher bank angle as if there was some event that put the student into a very high bank angle (example 60 degrees) unable to maintain altitude at full throttle. Nose falls and the recovery procedure is initiated by simultaneously decreasing angle of attack, leveling wings and reducing throttle.

There may be a difference of opinion of exactly the sequence among flight instructors, but I teach a simultaneous pitch/roll/throttle where a sequence 1,2,3 can also be utilized for specific wing/trike situations. The PTS tasks needs to be open enough to accomplish either method depending on the specific trike/wing.

So how do we provide a recovery technique to initiate and recognize a spiral that can be thought by CFI's and practiced by the student on their own.

Here is my first cut at this in the PTS to accomplish this task. The objective is to obtain input before I submit this to the FAA to have it incorporated into the PTS. Here is a first cut at the two tasks as a starting point:

TASK: POWER ON SPIRAL RECOVERY (WSCL and WSCS)

REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-5; Aircraft Flight Manual(AFM)/POH/AOI, .

Objective. To determine that the applicant:

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to power on spiral recovery.

2. Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no lower than 1,000 feet AGL (Typically this would be at least 2000 AGL).

3. Establishes a high banked minimum 45 degree turn maintaining altitude at 1.6 Vs as specified by the examiner. Applicant simulates unintentional spiral by bumping to higher bank angle not to exceed 60 degrees and nose down attitude 30 degrees. Transitions smoothly and immediately from nose down high banked turn to level flight with 0 to 30 degrees bank angle.

4. Minimizes altitude loss, with no high pitch angle recovery, with immediate correction to new heading with no more than 180°correction in direction from simulated spiral initiated heading.

5. Recognizes and recovers promptly after the spiral is initiated by reducing the angle of attack , leveling the wing and reducing throttle to return to a straight-and-level flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate for the specific weight-shift control aircraft.

6. Returns to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner.

Y. TASK: POWER OFF SPIRAL DIVE (WSCL and WSCS)

REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-5; Aircraft Flight Manual(AFM)/POH/AOI, .

Objective. To determine that the applicant:

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to power off spiral recovery.

2. Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no lower than 1,000 feet AGL.

3. Reduces throttle and establishes a high banked minimum 45 degree descending turn at 1.6 Vs as specified by the examiner. Applicant simulates unintentional spiral by bumping to higher bank angle not to exceed 60 degrees and nose down attitude 30 degrees. Transitions smoothly and immediately from nose down high banked turn to level flight with 0 to 30 degrees bank angle.

4. Minimizes altitude loss , with immediate correction to new heading with no more than 180°correction in direction from simulated spiral heading.

5. Recognizes and recovers promptly after the unintentional spiral is initiated by simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, leveling the wing and increasing throttle as appropriate to return to a straight-and-level flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate for the weight shift control aircraft.

6. Returns to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner.

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Comments

242 Comments

  • Clyde Poser
    by Clyde Poser 1 year ago
    Paul,
    I don't think this is a good idea. Whereas teaching the recovery to students and training them to avoid spiral dives is one thing, letting them go up and practice them by themselves is just setting them up for an accident. It should be the same as whip stalls and tumbles; discussion only.
  • B Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 1 year ago
    I agree with Clyde and believe this is an ill-considered idea.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    Hi Clyde, While whip stalls are dangerous and unrecoverable, they are also something easy enough to avoid. I have said that generally the only people whip stalling are those doing radical maneuvers. But spirals happen to people just enjoying a peaceful flight. or happen to people that switch wings and don't get transition trained or people that bank steeply for the first time. I would venture to say the MAJORITY of all trike pilots will enter a spiral in their flying careers. And on that note, from the caliber (no offense to any reading this) of pilots that come through my door that look at the ground every time they turn (not the horizon) I would say the only way to keep them away from entering an accidental spiral is to tell them to never bank steeply and never bank at slow speed. Well sooner or later they WILL bank steeply and or at slow speed and they will enter that spiral.

    While the spiral dive definition of the aircraft accelerating and increasing speed or bank may be something that is stressful to the aircraft, a stabilized spiral descent should not be stressful to the aircraft. It is also my opinion that a stabilized spiral descent is just as dangerous as a spiral dive since the vast majority of pilots that spiraled into the ground did not explode their wings or pass out from Gs but simply hit the ground nose down/wing down. And there are tons of examples of this.

    I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, what Paul is proposing is a spiral 45- 60 degrees in bank with the nose 15-30 degrees down. This is an attitude every instructor should be comfortable taking any SLSA trike into and out of at altitude. If not, I think it is a time for CHANGE. If for no other reason than making it safer for students to get trained. Students take me into spirals on a regular basis. The reason is simple, I don't rescue them the moment things are going bad. I have limits, they are listed just above.

    unintentional Spirals in my opinion are more likely than unintentional stalls themselves in a trike. And unlike spin recovery which can be dangerous or impossible in some fixed wing aircraft, spiral recovery in an SLSA is effective and immediate with no added risk above other flight training. The riskiest maneuver I teach is the landing. The landing has a far greater level of skill and risk to the student and instructor in my opinion. But this is just my opinion, if others disagree, let us discuss, and help understand why spiral recovery training in itself is dangerous.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 1 year ago
    At the beginning of this month I had the pleasure to do a flight review with Lee Schmidt. Lee wanted to cover and practice recovery of spiral dives. We tried to enter it simulating an accelerated stall in a 45 degree bank while slowing down. I showed Lee how to recognize it right as the nose starts to drop in the turn towards the ground and immediate action to get it corrected. Most people will enter it this way. Slowing down while banking steeply. The remedy is simple and immediate with a decent trike and tuned wing. I would caution to practice this at altitude and in calm conditions and avoid gusty conditions. Lee should probably comment on what he thought but I fly very conservatively with students and don't let them take me where there is even a minor chance of me not making it back safely generally speaking. Communication has to be clear and the whole action sequence has to be covered on the ground briefing and concepts understood on the ground before going up like it should be for any lesson. You implement practice in the air and learn concepts and discuss prior to the lesson on the ground.
    One could consider this prevention recovery from accelerated stall of 45 to 60 degree bank. For ASTM compliance, the test pilot has to do this recovery with "normal" (whatever that is) use of control and with certain other criteria.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    Abid, you are talking about entering a stall in a medium banked turn. Ya, I don't like that idea at all. I have done it, but things happen REAL QUICK and the wing drop can exceed 60 degrees in a split second. The attitude it leads to is where pilots start adding throttle and pushing the bar forward all the way to impacting the ground.

    Did you put yourselves in a spiral and recover on the review?
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 1 year ago
    We entered the starting of the spiral this way and recovered immediately and also practiced prevention going from an accelerated stalls to a full blown downward corkscrew. There was no danger if you knew what to do. It was a non-event. If you don't know of course, you can get killed just like the instructor w/o training bars and student in Washington state in a turn around a point and a few in Australia have done unfortunately. That is what Lee wanted to see as to what it takes. We never really went over past 65 degree bank I'd say and of course I would not let him add throttle or push out. That is completely wrong thing to do and there is no time to correct that if there isn't enough altitude.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Clyde and Bruce,
    Yes the best way is for students to be properly trained and practice this during training, whether it is verbal like the tuck tumble or in practice performing the maneuver. However this has not happened and trike pilots are spiraling into the ground and killing themselves when some training of any kind may have saved them. This was my first thought of how to solve the problem that needs to be solved.

    But unfortunately, this did and will not happen. Most CFI's only teach to get through the PTS. So the only way to assure it gets tough to all pilots by CFI's is to put it into to the PTS. Any other suggestions are appreciated.......

    As far as verbal or practice, this needs to be a habit and immediate before things get worse. I feel verbal just is not enough to make this a habit and it should actually be learned and practiced by CFI's, Pilot's and Student'.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    Personally I would prefer to see an established spiral descent with at least 1 full rotation and when the examiner says recover the plane should recover within a specified period (example less than 5 seconds) the heading is in my opinion a lost cause and it should be considered recovered ONLY when altitude loss is over. I

    I have also found it helpful to ask the student to push the bar forward during the spiral which generally gets it turning rapidly while stabilizing the airspeed which allows the student to get familiar with what is happening. Then i touch the throttle a bit and show the I'll effects of that and then finally perform the recovery. The thought there is making the spiral attitude not so foreign and allow the student to familiarize themselves with that attitude. The avoidance training is super important because I want to enter a spiral with a student not from a stall but by entering a steep turn power off. Obviously it is steep turns power on that are more likely to be real world scenarios for unintentional spirals to start or a stall in a turn.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Yes I do spirals almost every day. For intro flights, I have to loose about a mile of altitude and this is a great tool. It is one of the highlights of an introductory flight (for those who want it). For primary students advanced training before solo, I also to the high banked turn stall where the wing drops and nose drops for immediate recovery. Nothing like the surprise with immediate action to get it deep in the brain. Takes a while but I feel this is very important training.
  • Tony Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 1 year ago
    Seems to me that what is being proposed is exceeding even the manufacturer operating limitations and in the process of teaching something we may be actually putting the student and instructor at risk.... Even the Post Production Test Flight routine do not call for such! ... you sure you want to practice maneuvers beyond Operating Limitations? .... 60 degree bank angle (not to exceed) is not intended to produce a stall & recovery. Spins are also beyond Operating Limitations... are we going to teach tumble so students can learn how to avoid?

    I agree that students should be familiar with stalls and recovery from such. Also aware that pushing out in the bar does not necessarily produce the result that they are looking for... lower angle of attach and bring wings level is the correct procedure to recover; however, I am not sure we need to take it to extremes and beyond operating limits to demonstrate.

    my 2 cents
    TC
  • Tony Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 1 year ago
    P&M Quick Range Operating Limitations:

    Do not pitch nose up or down more than 45 degrees from horizontal
    Do not exceed more than 60 degree of bank
    ALL aerobatic maneuvers including whipstalls, wingovers, tail slides, loops, rolls and SPINS are prohibited.

    Also:
    Post Production Test Flight calls for stall at 30 degree bank (nothing beyond that)

    TC
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    I am with tony on stalls in a bank... That can exceed limitations. But stabilized spiral recovery should be on the test and trainng in my opinion.
  • B Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 1 year ago
    If this is a problem that needs to be addressed in the PTS then I would like to see hard numbers supporting the assertion that there has been an increase in deaths as a result of spiral dives. The hand waving often gets carried away and the sport ends up with rules based on beliefs not reality. I saw this many times during the ASTM process. It was always a classic argument from authority fallacy with someone saying “I know this is a problem because I know more than any of you”. Either data supports the assertion or it does not. I think its great you address spirals in your training and your students benefit from your attention, but to impose this on the whole community I believe is ill-advised.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    Let's look at the last 90 days. 2 fatal spirals in Australia and before that kens spiral caught on video with Henry saving him. This is all this year alone. We can go back year by year and I believe there is a pattern.
  • B Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 1 year ago
    Glad you brought up Henry's experience. After viewing the video I believe that something more fundamental was the problem, energy management rather than the turn itself. As you rightly pointed out Larry, giving up energy by pushing out may be compensated for by increasing power, up to the point of the critical AOA. But rather than add another task to the PTS would it not be more advantageous to make sure students are familiar with sound energy management practices. And since energy management techniques will be a partial function of a wings' design and performance it is something the manufacturer should address, hence published operating limitations.

    I would also point out no references are given, so independent verification by others is not possible.
    Not having reviewed the published evidence I can not speak to the accidents out of country.

    Language is our common currency and some days my wallet is empty.
  • Tony Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 1 year ago
    It Is quite possible to cover, demonstrate and practice the subject during instruction without taking it to limits. Also, discussing the nonsense I hear often told to newbies ... That trikes and the flexwing are somewhat very stall resistance...!!! I believe such ideas create a false sense of security in some. But, Agree 100% that more time should be spent discussing the issues and proper procedures for recivering from unusual attitudes.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    B Alvarius, the words you are looking for in an accident report involving a trike spiraling into the ground are LOSS OF CONTROL. These words mean spiral/spiral dive 99% of the time.

    Loss of control results in a downward spiral in a trike almost EVERY TIME. These accidents involve one good wing sticking up in the air after impact many times with the prop blades broken off at the hub from hitting at wide open throttle.

    Analyzing how to not lose control is great since most of the time it is pilot induced (as you mention in Ken's case which I agree with). But many times it can be from outside forces or the pilots flying aggressively and then the pilot not able to react properly or quickly enough to avoid the loss of control (spiral).

    SO... once you are in a spiral, are you trained? Are you in control and trained to stop the descent or are you out of control and cannot arrest your descent.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Tony, i agree completly, no trike limits should be exceeded. This is how i have written it so no trike limitations would be exceeded specificly max 30 pitch and 60 bank.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    I see your point bruce and if anybody can help me put together specific instances that is the purpose of the other JUSTIFICATION blog. PLEASE help site specific instances in this blog as part of the justification.
  • B Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 1 year ago
    Larry, thank you for the prompt response. If I'm reading your response correctly, the discussion centers on spirals induced by outside forces and not pilot induced spirals since the skills required to avoid entering the spiral would presumably be covered in training. If “loss of control” is doublespeak for a spiral that is a result of outside forces it seems to me the discussion should center on identifying those outside forces responsible for the “loss of control” rather than concentrating on pilot behavior. If on the other hand this is about pilot behavior and “the pilots flying aggressively” then I would suggest this is a remedial training issue and the fix lies with the personal integrity of the CFI and their teaching methodology but does not require an addition to the PTS. If it is about CFI skills (teaching methodology) then that skill set is the place to look and not the student trying to understand and master the current PTS requirements.

    While I may be accused of parsing the language too finely, it is only because at some point someone who is not part of the discussion (future student) would have read the requirement and understand what is meant and the thought and reasons behind the requirement.

    Language is our common currency and some days my wallet is empty.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 1 year ago
    I am not sure I buy spiral dives are entered mostly due to outside forces. I think most are entered by stalling in a steep bank. And by steep bank I do not mean passing 60 degrees AOB limitation. You can be well within 60 degrees AOB and well below the published stall speed for 1 G flight and create an accelerated stall as anyone with a license should know. Yet people do it more often than we would like. We can call it energy management or something else, the point is it happens and the energy management practice does not cover specifically banked stalls at all starting within AOB operating limits.

    The ASTM design standard and other standards requires that manufacturer perform banking stall as follows:

    "4.2.5 Turning Flight and Stalls shall be performed as follows:
    after establishing a steady state turn of at least 30° bank, the speed shall be reduced until the aircraft stalls, or until the full nose up limit of pitch control is reached. After the turning stall or reaching the limit of pitch control, level flight shall be regained without exceeding 60° of roll. This shall be performed with the engine at idle. No loss of altitude greater than 152 m [500 ft], uncontrolled turn of more than one revolution, or speed buildup to greater than Vne shall be associated with the recovery."

    Notice that 30 degrees is the "minimum" banking stall manufacturer has to do.

    The simple fact is that instructors are not covering this under energy management or anything else. I will even go forward and say till 1 year ago, some instructors themselves didn't know enough to recover from an unexpected spiral dive. I have given some stats before and even shown that Australian ATSB recommended and Australian clubs followed advice and added spiral dive recovery into their training curriculum a decade ago and yet they still have these accidents (meaning the training being provided isn't up to the task).
  • Bill Pilgrim
    by Bill Pilgrim 1 year ago
    My own personal view is, the reason we seem to be seeing more of these accidents is, for many years we were happy with the larger slower wings and the training syllabus was adequate for these. Now we want smaller faster wings, so guys that have been getting by with the knowledge and experience gained on these wings are going out and buying the new improved, and without getting proper transition training, and sometimes no transition training at all, are getting into trouble.
    The new generation wings are not dangerous, but they are different....
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    All true.... We could write a book on how many different ways a spiral starts, but there are only 2 ways it usually stops. Either the pilot easily recovers or they hit the ground in a panic of confusion as the plane continues to wind in.

    For me, Henry's video was just the best example I could even think of. The thought of no one entering a spiral with tons of training is unrealistic. If for no other reason than complacency and not paying attention while flying.

    The training Abid is talking about can be very dangerous because holding the bar forward for even 1 second longer than they probably did when they recognized the stall happening in the bank can put you in a very bad situation outside the limitations of the aircraft. This type of training could be risky if the student freezes for a second and if they ever were going to freeze on the controls, this might be the time. Great training in my opinion, but I will not do this training unless I am very comfortable with the student allowing me to transfer control to me if needed without delay
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 1 year ago
    People who drive minivans should NOT need to learn how to drive Formula one cars. I don't see any benefit of making this as a part of PTS maneuvers, instead the manufacturer of these advanced wings should make extra training mandatory. This will be good for the manufacturer and the instructors because this way instructors could make some extra income by teaching the advanced maneuvers. It will take some liability off the manufacturers. And this will spare all the slow flyers from wasting money on the training they don't need. My two cents.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    Rizzy, if you think you are immune to winding up in a spiral at some point because you fly a 15 meter Gibbo you are sadly mistaken. Our friend Sue spiraled into the ground with the most docile wing you can fly about 3 years ago. I can remember reading about the guy that got hit with turbulence in the mountains in his Wizzard wing 17 meter. In fact it is big wings that carry far more risk of entering a spiral from being exposed to adverse weather and wind. It is also my opinion, that like Sue, people that fly in dead calm air as a rule and bank no more than 25 degrees as a rule are most susceptible to loss of control resulting in a spiral when something causes them to bank 60 degrees plus.

    Spiral training is generally 5-15 minutes of training and if you spend 15 minutes on it you might have to spend an hour cleaning up the puke. Recovering twice (one to the right and one to the left) Is usually more then sufficient.

    If you truly want to be safe when you fly your trike, whatever it is, you should have your 5 minutes of added training. Listen to what Henry said in his interview "never thought I would need the training".
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    All trike wings will spiral. If any one is led to believe spirals only happen to new high performance wings this is simply not true. Spirals can happen in any wing - old, new, high performance, low performance, large, small. This discussion about it only happening to certain types of wings is simply not true. I have spirals in my trike training video with a single surface air creation, 503 made about 15 years ago long before the small wings with a 912 were ever dreamed of. So please do not be misled that spiral training is only for new high performance wings. IT CAN HAPPEN TO ANY WING.
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 1 year ago
    I am not entirely opposed to the idea of extra knowledge and discussion. I am merely suggesting an industry regulated system vs an FAA REGULATED one. This could really insure the manufacturer of advanced wings against liability. I am sure big wings can spiral but in the recent memory all spiral deaths or incidents have happened on small advanced wings. I used to fly Wizard 17 meter, then NW 19 and now back to 17 meter. Compared to and small double surface performance wing. My chances of getting into a spiral are probably very low. I am glad to discuss this with my instructor but feel making it a PTS MANEUVER is an overkill. I do favor industry regulation vs FAA. I also agree with Clyde Poser above of discussing the maneuver vs putting the student and aircraft at risk.











    memory all the spiral deaths and incidents i know of have happened on small performance wings. I use to fly a Wizard, then a 19 nw and now a manta 17. All of them very slow and stable wings. I am not oppose to a discussion with my instructor but making it a PRE maneuver is an overkill
  • B Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 1 year ago
    If this is a training issue as Abid suggests and pilots are unintentionally entering spirals as a result of turning stalls and as stated pilots who confine themselves to flying only in calm conditions being the most susceptible then it seems to me this is the area where training should concentrate, how to avoid a turning stall rather than entering the spiral and then how to exit them. Perhaps the best argument against including spiral dive training and recovery is Abid's statement that Australian training incorporated this a decade ago and it has not relieved the problem. Adid suggests this is the result of inadequate training by instructors and emphasizes the point.

    As Larry states “[w]e could write a book on how many different ways a spiral starts”. It seems to me there are 3 general ways of entering a spiral dive:

    1. Unintentional entry a a result of outside forces, weather. Example- ?
    2. Unintentional entry as a result of inappropriate pilot input. Example - Henry's video.
    3. Intentional entry. Examples - Larry's video, Paul's video, my video.

    In addition, if those most susceptible are pilots who confine themselves to flying in only calm conditions then I agree that more training to help increase their comfort level would be useful. Perhaps the best way to approach the problem is through the bi-annual flight review. This would allow information about spirals to spread through the CFI community, as well as the general pilot community, while not burdening student pilots with another PTS requirement and the attendant cleanup after training. It would spread the information believed to be important to those who are on the front line training students as well as bring other pilots up to speed.
  • Tony Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 1 year ago
    Every WS student pilot should see Henry's spin recovery video... that will for sure imprint in the brain! The multiple camera angles help to visualize very well, probably as much as doing it yourself.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 1 year ago
    Minivans??? Riz you are very sadly mistaken. If you fly a big baggy wing, you are probably more likely to go into a spiral dive with forces outside of your control (that's probably what Larry was saying to my comment). At least with smaller higher wing loading wings, you go into them because you stalled it in a turn. The margin between cruise and stall in your big wing is much much less than wings with more range and you are more susceptible to turbulence induced roll upset. Now it may be true that due to that you only fly in calmer conditions than the other wings you talk about. Yes that may be the case but that is even worse because one day you will be in some conditions and you will get hit in roll upset and shortly after into a spiral. Very easy recovery with right actions.

    So this isn't about minivans and corvettes at all and if you think it is then you are not understanding the issue I think and we are not conveying it properly.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    Ok, I think its time to do another video and show a spiral recovery lesson with a real student doing it for the first time. This may get everyone on the same page as to what might be involved in this task. I think many people think this is somehow more extreme than a steep bank turn lesson. Let me see if I have time and a student to demonstrate on video what I am doing on a regular basis with my students.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Yes it really is not that extreme and within the limitations of the trike

    We do already have a number of resources so another video would be helpful but not needed. We have plenty now so here is what we have.

    The most important remedy is to get actual spiral dive/avoidance/recovery dual training from a qualified instructor. This can most easily be combined with a flight review or a training session with a trike CFI.

    Additionally there are many ground training resources that each and every pilot and instructor can utilize to move pilots from the proper or improper rote actions to the correlation levels of learning.

    These are listed below:

    Henry Trikelife video with editing where spiral recovery training saved two lives:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwwXw6y0cBA

    Henry Trikelife raw flying footage of above video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnx2lXonopg

    Spiral Recovery Ground School for Trikes Paul Hamilton raw ground footage of above video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGvLQI9lFmc

    Exit a Spiral Dive by Larry Mednick video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgRVpw7TvrY



    Spiral Dive in A.C. by Larry Mednick Video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFwNN_PVeRE

    Ground school paper book where Spiral Dive science/principles is discussed in detail chapter 5 Advanced Flight Maneuvers:

    http://www.pilot-stores.com/weight-shift-control-aircraft-pilots-handbook-of-aeronautical-knowledge/

    Ground school downloadable eBook where Spiral Dive science/principles is discussed in detail chapter 5 Advanced Flight Maneuvers:

    http://www.pilot-stores.com/weight-shift-control-aircraft-pilots-handbook-of-aeronautical-knowledge-ebook/

    Trike Training Syllabus where Spiral Recovery is part of a comprehensive training program:

    http://www.pilot-stores.com/sport-and-private-pilot-training-syllabus-trike/

    Steep Turns and Spirals for Trikes where steep turn turbulence resulted in spiral with immediate corrective action

    http://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=YrxsfescO0g



    Please provide any additional training resources on this subject for trike pilots so we can have a complete listing here
  • Bill Pilgrim
    by Bill Pilgrim 1 year ago
    B Alvarius,
    Re Australian training. This has been my experience: in my initial training the only thing we did re spirals was, come into the airport high, do a spiral descent, to show how it was a useful tool to lose some altitude quickly. The only thing I remember about it is, the comment was to be prepared to exit the spiral quickly because the ground comes up really fast. I don't remember the inputs explained to recover at that time. ( that could be argued to be my failing rather than the instructors) but I think a little more time could have been allocated to, what the headstones in the cemetery would suggest, is a very important topic. Since then my BFRs have not included a spiral or discussion about them. My point is, you can't hold up what we do in Australia as an example, because it can be done a lot better. I should also say that I am sure some instructors are more thorough in this area, the above is only my experience.
    If you can put any faith in our training then what I think it proves is, it's about not getting transition training from the minivan to the corvette and when the unexpected happens and you are not current on the inputs necessary panic takes hold and then.....
    What I don't understand about this discussion, is why people are so adverse to gaining a little extra knowledge and skill. I believe you should be able to take it for granted the instructor is not going to risk your life, because in so doing he would be risking his own.
    To borrow a line if I may. Language is our common currency and some days my wallet is empty
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Tony and everyone.
    Yes if all the trike CFI's got and then provided spiral dive training that would be great. But let's face reality, this has not and is not going to happen. Here we are just preaching to the choir. There is all kinds of stuff out there about the dangers of spirals and how training is needed to save lives and very little action has happened. Very few CFI's and students/pilots are really getting spiral exit procedures. This is why the only real solution, as a described in the main post here, is to add it to the PTS. I appreciate everyone's wishing, hoping, saying to each other that all the CFI's should, but face reality. Not going to happen by us talking to each other.
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 1 year ago
    Abid, I think you're right that the message is not being conveyed properly.

    Paul opened with the powerful statement that spiral recovery is not just hypothetical, it's the direct cause of fatalities, and something should be done about it. This got my attention in a hurry. But that opening statement didn't get backed up. Paul said he'd explain it later. You and Larry are pointing out that spiral dives can happen to anyone in any wing. This is true, but it's diluting the message.

    The fixed-wing analogy to a spiral dive in a trike is probably a stall/spin. It's a loss of control that is recoverable with enough altitude and prompt and correct action. Delayed or incorrect action can make things catastrophically worse. Until 1949, you had to demonstrate spin recovery to get a PPL. In that year the requirement to demonstrate was dropped and training was refocused on recognizing and avoiding the spin.

    Today state the of the fixed wing world is: spin recovery procedures are in the POH. PPL practical training focuses on avoiding spins. CFIs need to demonstrate spin recovery. General pilot guidance is to treat spins very cautiously - review the manual before flight, fly with an instructor, start with lots of altitude, you may need to wear a parachute.

    Since this approach seems to be working for the fixed-wing community, shouldn't the trike community consider something similar?
  • B Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 1 year ago
    Bill – I'm not adverse to more information and opportunities to learn. Just the presentation with the claim that the sky is falling, with no justification or supporting evidence. I come away with the impression that this is to be taken as an article of faith until sometime later. While the mob mentality approach is a valid way to get people involved it does nothing that reflects the underlying reality which may or may not be true and whose solution may or may not be viable.

    If everyone is at great risk from spiral dives and has been since trikes were invented (the low or high performance wing argument) why is it suddenly a problem in the US market. It seems that forcing the idea through by making it a PTS requirement without a well reasoned argument and evidence that supports it along with concrete recommendations to solve it is in reality a panacea. I come back to my original statement “this is an ill-considered idea”.

    Language is our common currency and some days my wallet is empty
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    B Alvarious is right, it's time to pull the accident reports and put all the spiral/possible spirals into a list. I think 10-15 should be sufficient.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 1 year ago
    Jake:
    No the analogy to fixed wing for trike spiral dive is "not" stall spin. Spin is something completely different and some airplanes get into a flat spin that simply cannot be recovered. Analogy to a spiral in an airplane is a spiral, death spiral or similar. They have the same recovery procedure as what we have to do. Spin can be a lot more scary depending on the airplane model. In some its no big deal.

    B Alvarius: Its not a sudden problem at all. Its been happening. 2 Air Creation GTE fatal accidents a decade ago (one in NJ) killing two, spiralling into the ground when spiral was induced at 1000 feet by flying behind the wake of a coast guard heli. We know what wake turbulence does, you can be in a 45 degree bank in a second but it did not need to go into a spiral and that spiral did not need to continue down to the ground. I remember John Kemmeries assessment was, he did not know what happened, the weather was fine etec. etc. and he had nothing to say. That was a spiral my friend and neither the BFI nor the student had a clue on how to recover from it and they could have easily. The Australian accident I have posted here that prompted ATSB to ask HGFA to add spiral recovery training into their curriculum that I also have posted about here before was from 1994 in big baggy Airborne wings of the time. So how can one say this has not been happening. A few years back the CFI in Washington state practicing Turns Around a Point with a student but without training bars from 400 feet AGL spiralled into the ground digging one wing tip in. What do you think that was? It was exactly what happened in Henry's video.
    I am busy setting up a production line for gyroplane because I am selling them 4 to 1 compared to trikes so I have little time to gather your stats in one place with all the reports but I have posted about many incidents ATSB reports, British CAA reports, and about US accidents all here before. You will easily come up with 10, latest being 2 in Australia.

    Looks like Australian instructors are also only paying lip service to the recommended training that ATSB thought was important.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 1 year ago
    Here is your start:
    1) http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20050302X00250&key=1 (Feb 7, 2005, Air Creation Clipper 912, wake turbulence encounter from coast guard heli and then developing spiral into the ground without structural failure, 2 died). I knew the student and his wife. Trained the student for 3 hours before he went back to NJ for further training and bought this Clipper

    2) http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20051026X01727&key=1 (Sept 24, 2005, Air Creation Clipper 912, spiralled (no it did not spin, witnesses can't tell the difference) into the ground in NJ again).

    3) http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20061006X01480&ntsbno=NYC06LA227&akey=1
    (Air Trikes Tourist, Sept 20, 2006, tight spiral into the ground from steep bank turns at low altitude)

    4) http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20070904X01305&ntsbno=DEN07LA145&akey=1
    (August 25, 2007, 300 foot flight into a Canyon, inadvertent stall/spin = spiral after stall - spiral being secondary)

    5) Possible (no witnesses but no pre-impact structural damage evidence) http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20080208X00159&ntsbno=LAX08LA050&akey=1

    6) http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20080910X01424&ntsbno=LAX08LA290&akey=1
    ( Sept 6, 2008 -- Airborne stall turn to left and spiral 200 feet into the ground, spiral being secondary here)

    More to find I'll leave those up to you guys to work to find. There are plenty out there in NTSB as well as around the world. Loss of control with no pre-impact structural damage or control circuit on wing is almost always a spiral developing that was not controlled or recognized from a turning stall.

    ASTB advice from accidents in 1994
    https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24713/ASOR199502099.pdf

    A revised HGFA Weightshift Microlight Flying Instructor's Manual was issued. This included the following:
    "Spiral Dive Tendency
    Demonstrate the tendency for the aircraft to begin to "spiral" when excessive pitch pressure is applied with a nose down attitude in a steep turn. Demonstrate that the aircraft will recover from the spiral due to its pitch and roll stability, though height loss can be substantial if excessive pitch pressure is held until the aircraft stalls. Demonstrate that reducing pitch pressure and levelling the wings will reduce height loss.
    "Demonstrate that though the aircraft's tendency to diverge in roll is slow, it will increase if the aircraft is held in this spiral mode. Demonstrate that the aircraft can be readily rolled level by easing pitch pressure and applying weightshift.
    "Ensure that the student is able to recognise the onset of the spiral tendency and is familiar with the recovery techniques".
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 1 year ago
    As i mentioned i am not opposed to more knowledge. I like Clyde poser's idea. I just feel this sudden push towards entering spiral recovery in PTS maneuvers seems sudden, pushy and weird. Most of the stories i have heard about spiral accidents and incidents are on performance wings. I even heard that the person Henry sold his Air Creation trike with the performance wing, that person crashed the trike due to difficulty with the performance wing. I can't verify the authenticity of this since i heard it through the grapevine. In conclusion, i feel that if the industry regulates these different skill level wings, we might have a better chance at saving lives. Because let's face it, even though i, am a sport pilot, i should not be attempting flying very high performance wings without proper training and a manufacturer should not be selling me a wing without making sure that i can handle it. A f-150 driver just can't drive a formula one car, even though he has a driving license. Let's just agree with this fact that technology has improved a lot and anyone wanting to own the new technology needs proper training. My 2 cents


























    far as i know, most recent spirals accidents and incidents have hap penned on fast performance wings.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 1 year ago
    Riz: You should always take training when you go from flying a 50 mph wing to an 80 mph wing of course or for that matter when you are used to flying a 100 mph wing and go to an ultralight 103 trike. You need to approach what you are not current on with common sense. That goes without saying but again I see you are back to the tag line of this happens to faster wings. Did you read my list of accidents above. There is nothing past 2009 there yet and this is just a simple small sample from the US only.
    The problem I see is people closing their eyes and their ears, see no evil, hear no evil and then say and believe he lost control, nothing broke till it hit the ground but he spun in and then move on without thinking anything of it. That's what they have have been doing for decades about this. Don't you believe that!! People have been spiralling in from the 1990's as can be seen by the ATSB report in what you may consider very slow wings. It has no bearing on faster or slower or bigger or smaller wings.
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 1 year ago
    Abid, those accidents sound pretty analogous to a stall/spin in a fixed-wing plane. Excessive angle of attack while banked at low altitude leading to departure from controlled flight, failure of the pilot to recognize and correct in time leading to impact.

    Even so, the path from two accidents a decade ago to "we need to change the PTS now" is confusing. Why are we not suggesting that spiral turn awareness be added to training? Why is there so much pushback against the idea that some wings are more prone to spiraling than others?

    Paul said that all input is appreciated, but most input is being rejected. Why?
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    Jake comments like prove that spirals are killing pilots and only performance wings are spiraling are enough to make anyone with a clue pull their hair out. These comments show that there is a general ignorance in the trike community to the problem. THIS IS WHY IT NEEDS TO BE REQUIRED. The first step is to realize that everything Abid just wrote is absolutely true. How can we talk about a solution when some of the people opposing it seem to not recognize the problem. If you don't recognize the problem, how can they make an educated decision about the solution?

    Now I'm not bashing anyone that has commented above. But SOME of the posts have me convinced that those people are not aware of the severity of the problem. And frankly I can't believe it after Henry's video. I thought things would be so clear after we finally after decades of spiral deaths got to be "on board" during a pilots last seconds.

    Abid, great job sighting those examples, there are several more examples off the top of my head.

    On another note, it was asked what if the student tries to spiral while solo before being trained if he sees it on the PTS. My answer to that is students should not ever be solo'd without spiral avoidance/recovery training.
  • B Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 1 year ago
    Thank you Abid, data to support an argument is always a good thing.

    I remember the first time, in support to an assertion he had made, McAfee put his hand on my shoulder and said "trust me", I felt something was off and later events supported that gut feeling.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    Discussion is good, but let's get these accidents posted and hopefully all get on the page that there is a problem.

    I am passionate about this since I have saved 3 while flying back seat (like Henry did) and I knew some of the people well that spiraled into the ground fatally. I also watched a near impact save recently (pulled out at 25'). So spiral training is quite personal and dear to my heart. If you see my writing being over dramatic, that is why. Sorry if I'm being hard to deal with on this subject.
  • charles nolen
    by charles nolen 1 year ago
    When I got my GA license spin recovery was not required. My instructor and I were doing power on stalls and went into a spin. I didn't know what the heck was going on. Very strange attitude and nothing like we had practiced. He corrected the spin in a matter of seconds. He explained what happened and how to get out of the spin and demonstrated it again. Not hard to do but at least I knew what to do and most importantly how it felt to be in a spin. Most of my GA friends at the time had never been in a spin though they had been TOLD what to do to correct it. But how would you know what to do if you don't know what it is like to be in a spin. No way to explain how it feels you have got to be there and experience it. My trike instructor never said anything about spins. Only until I entered one unintentionally and dumb luck saved my bacon did I know what it feels like. Yes it needs to be taught during trike training.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    Hi Charles, great examples. So what size wing did you accidentally spiral?
  • charles nolen
    by charles nolen 1 year ago
    To clarify, my trike instructor never said anything about spirals ( or spins for that matter). The point is a trike student needs to at least be placed in a spiral to see what it feels like so he/she will recognize a spiral dive.
  • Bill Barry
    by Bill Barry 1 year ago
    I accidentally spiraled(i think) my 17 meter wizzard wing when I decided to turn around and loose some altitude to get closer to some people on the ground. I remember hearing a lot of wind noise and seeing more than 80 mph on the ASI, and thinking this can't be good. I knew that turning had gotten me into this so I leveled the wing. Anyone that has flown a Wizzard knows that the easy way to roll is to unload the wing by pulling the bar in, not as needed on other wings I have flown. Pulling the bar in seemed natural to me.
  • Tony Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 1 year ago
    Hello Charles, you mentioned:

    " My trike instructor never said anything about spins. Only until I entered one unintentionally and dumb luck saved my bacon did I know what it feels like. "

    How did you unintentionally entered the spin?

    Tony C
  • Peter Del Vecho
    by Peter Del Vecho 1 year ago
    I am still not sure what all the resistance is as it could save your life. It can happen very quick (Henry's video) and your ability to recognize the problem and then act is crucial. Henry originally thought it could never happen to him. Fortunately he had seen the video Larry made and acted promptly.

    Larry took me out in my trike and had me put it into a spiral. Knowing what to do made it easy to recover. Hopefully I will remember before panicking if I ever inadvertantly get into this situation, especially at a low altitude. Although the lesson was only about 10 minutes of our flight time, it made a lasting impression.

    You don't have to be flying a fast wing or aggressively to get into this situation. What about unexpected turbulence, rotor wash, overshooting your turn from base to final.

    Larry, Henry, Paul, Abid thank you for continuing to point out how to avoid and recover from an inadvertant spiral.
  • Tony Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 1 year ago
    Peter, I do not believe anyone ihere is resisting training, but rather commenting to make such training is consistent and safe. Paul request feedback and opinions, so different views are good to narrow the subject.
    TC
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    I am still amazed that people think spirals only happen in new high performance wings.
    Again:
    All trike wings will spiral. If any one is led to believe spirals only happen to new high performance wings this is simply not true. Spirals can happen in any wing - old, new, high performance, low performance, large, small. This discussion about it only happening to certain types of wings is simply not true. I have spirals in my trike training video with a single surface air creation, 503 made about 15 years ago long before the small wings with a 912 were ever dreamed of. So please do not be misled that spiral training is only for new high performance wings. IT CAN HAPPEN TO ANY WING.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Rizwan,
    2 months ago after the last spiral killed 2 people you said "I think, going forward spiral recovery should be made part of PTS manuvers." http://www.trikepilot.com/members/profile/2242/blog-view/_993.html supporting efforts to get it into the PTS. Why do you now say "I just feel this sudden push towards entering spiral recovery in PTS maneuvers seems sudden, pushy and weird." What made you change your mind and why were you for it and why are you opposed now?
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Bruce,
    Is there enough data to support the fact that something needs to be done about spiral training to save lives. Make sure and watch Henry's video again before answering. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwwXw6y0cBA
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Charles and Bill, Thanks for your experiences and living to talk about it. Do you mind if I use your story's in the justification blog?
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    Ok I recorded my lesson today with my current student who had not done spiral training, to show how what I am doing with students. The part where stalled TWICE! was somewhat inadvertent. Things went from controlled to radical in a split second. I did not give the student time to fix it in either case.

    One of the things demonstrated here that is new, is the importance of which hand not to use and adding throttle followed by abruptly lifting off the throttle. Have a look on the video page.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Jake you asked in the justification blog: "Paul, I appreciate your concern about the risk of spiral dives, and agree that they are a significant risk. What is the rationale for adding a demonstration of spiral dive recovery to the PTS as the way to address this vs. other approaches?" Paul responds: As I have said a number of ways here"I have decided to get it into the PTS because this is the only way it will be added to the curriculum of CFI's so students becoming pilots and pilots during their flight review will get the proper training to save trike pilot lives.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Nice job with the video Larry. Another tool for the toolbox. Videos are great but you have to do it to learn it.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 1 year ago
    Jake:
    To answer your specific questions addressed to me.
    Ok, so to me as an engineer and as an instructor airplane spin and airplane or trike spiral are completely different. The mechanism is different and the dynamics are different. If you want to believe they are analogous be my guest. They are not the same but if you think they are alike, that has really no bearing on this discussion. Airplane CFIs also train to recver from spirals and death spirals (from IMC). Do some searching and you will find out.

    As to path from those accidents in 2005 to now include it in the PTS is because in 2005 I didn't connect those dots. I didn't know enough and the instructors of that time didn't either nor did the FAA. Obviously Australian ATSB knew back in 1995 as you can see from their analysis. Any way I did not start this discussion Paul did and I agree the training will save many lives. Last few years alone in the US and Australia it would have probably saved 6 or 7. I guess if thats not good enough reason to add it then don't.

    Why there is resistance to the idea that some wings are more apt to spiral than others ... who said I am resisting that idea. May be you are addressing it to someone else. I am not. I am resisting the odd idea that big slow wings don't spiral and faster smaller wings do. That is one weird wonder of an idea if you understand how this thing happens and what happens. It has nothing to do with wing's speed range or wing's size. It is definitely possible that one wing is spirally less stable than others. In fact I can spout out few pairs right off the top of my head. But they are not one way to another because of size and speed they have.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 1 year ago
    B Alvarius:
    So you have learned to be from Missouri, now :).
    There is more data I know of. Probably close to 3 times what I listed but time is not on my side right now. I just wanted to head you in the right direction. Anyone can find this data with time and dedication.
    I am busy setting up a new bigger assembly shop. We are moving production including fabrication completely to the US and you know how that goes. I need 3 of me.
  • Drew Pawlak
    by Drew Pawlak 1 year ago
    I agree with Peter 100%. I watched Larry's earlier videos on the subject and when we practiced it I knew theoretically how to recover. After just 10 minutes of actual instruction though, I had practical experience.

    I agree with most about NOT adding yet more hurdles and regulations however, if the test is what instructors train to and defines the syllabus, then this must be added. In my opinion, if added to the PTS, the focus should be on proper and fast recovery without the added silliness of headings to come out on and specific altitude losses.
  • Tom Currier
    by Tom Currier 1 year ago
    Nice. Thanks for the video, Larry. Very helpful as always.
  • B Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 1 year ago
    Abid - As I said, the data is important in presenting a convincing argument to not only the community but the FAA as well that spiral dive training should be included in the PTS (which is an FAA driven regulatory document). It is incumbent upon those wishing a change in the training requirements to pull together the relevant reports and analysis then present their analysis of the data they believe supports their position. I believe the potential for the discussion becoming emotionally charged is high and efforts to keep the discussion technical will help.

    As a graduate student if I presented an argument without supporting data I would be roasted alive, so I guess I've always been from Missouri.

    Language is our common currency and some days my wallet is empty
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 1 year ago
    Lots of good discussion here.

    Paul - I understand that you decide adding spiral recovery demonstration to the PTS is the most effective way to get pilots the training they need. Existing pilots aren't aware of the problem, so why not make it part of the flight review? Some CFIs aren't aware of the problem, why not add it to the CFI standards? Many of the accidents mentioned happened too low to recover, why not focus on avoiding spirals by emphasizing the dangers of too much outward bar pressure while banked?

    Abid: you said you thought most trike spirals were entered while stalling in a steep bank. What happens if you do that in an airplane?
  • B Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 1 year ago
    Sorry to be slow in responding Paul, I just found your comment. But yes, Henry's video does reveal a problem, I'm not disputing that. It is the source and proposed action that I question.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Yes Jake I agree completely. The PTS is the Bible for CFI standards for pilots training and existing pilots doing their BFR flight review. There is plenty of focus now on what is tought by all CFI's emphasizing the importance of forward bar pressure while banked but somehow students/pilots keep doing it???? Anyone know why since it is covered in the PTS????
  • dave kempler
    by dave kempler 1 year ago
    There is plenty of focus now on what is tought by all CFI's emphasizing the importance of forward bar pressure while banked but somehow students/pilots keep doing it???? Anyone know why since it is covered in the PTS????

    Could it be a hang glider thing? I had one CFI (ex-hangie) teach me to push forward on the bar during a bank to keep from losing altitude during the turn. Another CFI saw me do it and whacked me in the back of the helmet and strongly told me to add throttle to keep from losing altitude. I can now clearly see why pushing the bar forward might be a poor choice.
  • John Olson
    by John Olson 1 year ago
    The PTS makes many of us weary after reading just a few words Pablo. Our eyes get heavy, our heads nod, and we begin to snore. The PTS is Mankind's Most Ancient Dream, reduced to the lowest common denominator. Might have something to do with it. Might also be why there are so few instructors left.
    Just to remind us all... FAA-610, Where Fun Went To Die
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 1 year ago
    Dave Kempler:
    1) It is absolutely "not" a bad choice to push the bar forward a hair to keep from losing altitude in a banking turn and at the same time using power to keep constant speed during a banked turn.
    2) Pushing the bar out excessively is the problem. You need to co-ordinate the turn, not in the sense like airplane but in this sense of constant speed and appropriate nose attitude
  • Paul Dewhurst
    by Paul Dewhurst 1 year ago
    Spiral dive recovery should be part of the training and part of the testing for a license. It's been in our UK training syllabus and skills test since inception of licensing in the UK back in 1982. Not having it is a BIG oversight which should be corrected IMHO.

    We have it in our training syllabus in two places :

    1. - in the advanced turning exercise - where a poorly executed Turin can easily progress into a spiral dive.

    2. - in our unusual attitudes exercise - which explores recovery from the limits of the permitted envelope, which may be encountered for lots of reasons - poorly executed turning, or stalling manoeuvre, severe meteorological or wake turbulence encounter etc.

    We have had no serious accidents attributable to spiral dives here. Maybe lucky, but I like to think it's becuase we train for recognition and recovery.

    Paul
  • Paul Dewhurst
    by Paul Dewhurst 1 year ago
    Ahh - basic turn theory! - more lift is required in a steep turn to produce the vertical component required. Lift can only be produced by a combination of speed and angle of attack.

    A suitable target airspeed should be chosen for the steep turn allowing for a margin over the anticipated stall speed ( stall speed increases by 41% at 60 degrees of bank in a level turn) - enter the turn at this speed. As bank increases move bar forwards to increase angle of attack and produce the extra lift required, whilst coordinating with a power increase to defeat the increase in induced drag that the forward bar movement produces, and maintain the target speed. Use bar position to control height in the turn and power adjustment to control speed. Power + attitude = performance.

    If you don't move the bar forwards you will enter a spiral dive.

    If you move the bar forwards excessively and or don't increase power you might stall and then enter a spiral dive.

    Do it right and a beautiful carving safe steep turn is the result!

    Every pilot should / must know this.

    Paul
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Paul D, Very interesting and helpful. How can I get a hold of the training syllabus and testing standards.
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 1 year ago
    Paul Dewhurst: Good to hear from you. I was hoping you will see it and comment. I have been showing my students the proper turning method and also the tendency and places in steep turns where spiral dive can develop for almost 8+ years. Over here, naturally there is focus on the PTS because that is what is tested so students in the end tend to only select those maneuvers in their mind that are required by the PTS. Both Australian (via ATSB recommendation) and British standards have spiral dive recovery (though it seems like Australian HGFA instructors aren't exactly doing it very seriously from anecdotal evidence) but here in the US we still wait to mature our omissions. At least my students know it. It would have saved a few accidents here. Its foolish to think all those accidents were low and were unrecoverable. I have no clue where people come up with that stuff. It takes a few seconds to recover and more importantly if you know how to recover you understand what it kinesthetically feels like to be near that point and you would correct the situation and prevent it. I am glad you chimed in.
    Also exactly right on the carving turn. I term this co-ordinating a trike turn. It includes both pitch adjustment and power setting. Very basic stuff.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    To all - I See Your Full Range of Spiral Dive Opinions


    With the Call to Action to incorporate spiral recovery to the PTS I have heard a full range of opinions. Thank you all for having an opinion and providing it. This helps in my research for this important subject. This is an attempt to assure you all I am listening to your opinion. I am sure you will fit in there somewhere.


    In looking objectively at this full range I am going to rank/classify opinions on this subject in a range of 0 to 10. 0 is completely opposing it and 10 thinking it should be incorporated as a flight maneuver in the PTS. Please no one be offended here it is simply an objective look at the full range of opinions.


    Let's start with the 0. These are people who completely oppose doing anything because if we all should fly within our limitations this cannot happen to you. We have all been taught to fly and use judgment/ADM and if we do this we will be OK. In fact, those who spiral in and kill themselves plus a passenger/student deserve what happened because they were not flying within their limitations and intentionally flying recklessly. They should know better. It only happens to the new fast wings. Larger slow wings cannot get into a spiral. Additionally, if it is included in the PTS it will cause more harm than good because unqualified students and pilots will go out and try to practice for the checkride without qualified training and kill themselves in the process. It is an extreme and dangerous maneuver that only accomplished pilots should attempt. There is not any real reason to do anything because there is no hard evidence spirals are a problem or really kill people.


    Let's look at the 10. The other side of the story. These are people who think there have been enough deaths already from people spiraling in. The only way to incorporate spiral recovery into the training curriculum is to get it into the PTS so it becomes part of the basic student training, a task for the checkride and something for existing pilots to do for their flight review. All pilots of all trikes are susceptible to getting into spirals through turbulence or looking down at something or any other intentional or unintentional reason. Some simple training for all pilots would save lives. Spiral recovery training is within the limitations of the trike. Every trike pilot should learn this simple/easy recovery that should be experienced/felt and mastered before any pilot solos.


    OK there are the two extreme opinions. Completely against and completely for.


    From all the comments, many are not in these extremes, but in the middle somewhere. Let's look at a 6. Someone who thinks something should be done but no actual spirals should be performed by anybody. It would just be talked about, same as the tuck/tumble is verbal only.


    An 8 would have a CFI demonstrate but not allow the student to practice or any pilot should attempt.


    A 3 would realize there are spirals and spiral deaths as a result, but think it could not happen to them because they have a large beginner wing and they always fly within the limitations. Bad turbulence or a distraction cannot happen to them and/or could not cause a spiral.


    There is my evaluation as to the range of opinions of adding spiral recovery to the PTS. It would be great if anybody that comments further would self evaluate and give yourself a number from 0 to 10 based on this large range of opinions.
  • Joe Hockman
    by Joe Hockman 1 year ago
    Paul, although I have remained mostly silent, I am following all this discussion very closely. Your last post struck me as an unfair way to "objectify" opinions expressed. In particular you have mixed in 1) justification based on belief that fatalities are or are not occurring due to uncorrected spiral dives, and 2) who deserves what because of what how they fly (ie pilots that spiral in as part of a fatal accident deserved it because of the way they were flying).

    Here are my observations. I don't think any one has objected to additional training that might include spiral dive recovery. I don't ever recall seeing anybody comment that a pilot deserves to die in a spiral dive accident because ....

    I believe most (if not all) acknowledge that we are seeing unacceptable fatal accident rates that involve spiral dives. Many of the recent posts contribute details on actual fatal accident incidents. I think there is plenty irrefutable evidence.

    The way I see it is there is a need to make a binary decision (yes/no) on whether adding the maneuvers you defined to the PTS is the next "first step" to correct this situation. Frankly what you are getting here at TPS and other forums is opinions expressed from the vocal few.

    My belief is that occasionally issues for the trike flying community come up that are so important that it really deserves the input (or the opportunity to provide input) from ALL CFIs in the US. There really is only a small fraction of the CFI population that are active on TPS. You are NOT getting input from many important CFI voices here on TPS. This spiral dive issue I think is so important that all US-based CFIs should have an opportunity to provide input on the right "next steps".

    So I think you perhaps with the assistance of others should attempt to get a comprehensive distribution list (DL) that includes ALL CFI's. It certainly should be possible to do that given documentation and records out there. If needed, I would be willing to work with you to design / construct a truly objective survey to collect all CFI input.

    It is definitely not realistic to expect you will get 100% concensus from such a survey. However, it should be possible to get agreement that when a certain percentage (70 or 80% or whatever %) of the CFI voices indicate that inclusion in the PTS is the right "first step" then that will determine the outcome of the decision. Those in the minority will have to live with the decision.

    Yes there may be a bit of work to develop that comprehensive DL but it would be very useful to have not only for this current issue but for other important issues that come up in the future. We also need to realize that such a DL is an evergreen document since there will be new CFIs and some current CFIs may drop out from instruction. So clearly some periodic effort to make sure DL is up to date would be needed.

    So that is what I propose. I don't believe that one person making a decision based on his interpretation of the vocal few that are represented here on TPS is the right way to go. This is an important enough issue that I think the entire CFI community should be given the opportunity to provide input. I have a strong opinion on this, but I am not a CFI so my guess is my opinion does not really count. Does this proposal sound reasonable?
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 1 year ago
    Joe, no one can argue with what you posted.

    Although Pauls post was almost to the point of laughable (literally) he isn't exactly making anything up that either.

    As local discussions have continued today at lunch a Lockwood Drifter pilot friend of mine asked a very simple, but interesting question. "ARE TRIKES MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO SPIRAL DIVES THAN FIXED WING?" My girlfriend Amy blurted out without even thinking "yes". She flys both fixed wing and trikes. I nodded my head as she staid yes. Next my friend asked why. I have never said it out loud to hear it so plainly in English. I said one main reason is because trikes cannot pull Gs like your Drifter can. So in order to create the needed Gs to maintain altitude in a steep turn we must increase our AOA/power setting RADICALLY compared to the Drifter. While he can create 2 Gs with his rigid wing with almost no washout and rear spar trailing edge, our trikes dump lift and energy as soon as they create some Gs. So pilots either drop or generally fly the turn at very high AOA when compared to a fixed wing Anyway without going to deep, that, in short, was my main answer.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 1 year ago
    As a student Pilot, I don't have much in the way of experience to offer.
    What I can show you is what can happen to a new pilot such as myself in this sport, and for no induced reason of my own.
    This happened to me flying around Pahrump. Please keep in my mind that most of you with lots of experience probably experience things like this and worse perhaps on a regular basis. But to a new pilot, the sensation of just falling out of the sky can be unnerving. Luckily, I'm not the type to freak out.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft_iYItw_Fo
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Nice job Leo. I love it when people have it on video AND can talk about it.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Larry,
    This a very interesting question. Yes this is true about the loading but now that I train in airplanes and trikes here is an added perspective. Generally, in a trike you can look straight down and have no horizon reference. In an airplane no way. You have the reference. So I think an added factor is that the trike pilot can easily loose the frame of reference looking down but the airplane pilot always has that body around him.

    Doing spiral dives in a trike it is awesome to look straight down at a focus point. Airplanes no, too many body parts.

    So there is a mindset in addition to the G's.

    Add them up and it is different.

    Between the two of them is the differtence.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 1 year ago
    Thanks Paul. It probably seems trivial from an experienced pilots point of view. But I think all of us tend to forget the humble beginnings of our flying experience as time goes by.
    What ever cause that in the video, whether a bad rotor, or a turbulent up current, I can tell you one thing. It could have been worse, and as I said, for no reason of my own.
    This may or may not have led to a spiral dive had I not reacted quickly. But many seem to be of the opinion that they would never get themselves into a spiral dive situation.
    Yet here I am, a student pilot who also didn't do anything to induce the high roll rate, and it happened anyways.
    Just my 2 cents.
    I appreciate all of you guys sharing information on this forum. If anything please always remember, those of you with experience pave the way for the rest of us who are just starting. Your opinions all matter.

    Leo
  • jeff trike
    by jeff trike 1 year ago
    Leo.
    I thought I saw another trike ahead of you in the video. You might have flown through his prop wash.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 1 year ago
    There were several actually. We were all circling around that tower, staging for a fly over.
    At the time, I was the only one flying the inner circle. The nearest Trike path was 1500 feet away or so.
    Still, you may be right, and I thought about that as well. The thing is, I've flown thru enough prop wash since then, and this felt nothing like that.
  • Joe Hockman
    by Joe Hockman 1 year ago
    Larry, in my prior post I did not think I was really presenting a controversial view. From my perspective it is the logical path forward. I did not suggest any one was making any thing up either. However, most likely we all have opinions (which reflect biases) on this and the stronger the opinion the stronger the bias which may also reflect unwillingness to budge on their view. I sense the passion that you have for this and it is good to see such passions expressed. I think we have enough evidence to indicate we have a problem, the question is what to do about it and what should be the next step.

    So I would like to share my view on one aspect previously mentioned. It is reasonable to believe that all flex wings can enter a spiral dive. I don't think any body said it could not happen with a large wing. To me it is a physics thing based on wing loading and flying speeds which also determines how rapidly things happen and how quickly one must respond. Take a heavily loaded SLSA with a blade wing and you could easily be talking about wing loadings of 75 to 90 lbs/sq meter. In contrast take a light trike with a large wing, not uncommon for soaring trikes to be 25 to 30 lbs/sq meter. A clear difference right. Now put those 2 examples into a 60deg bank and 30deg pitch down. SLSA could now have effective loading of 174 to 208 lbs/meter. Soaring trike effective loading may increase to 58 to 70 lbs/m. Some simplifying assumptions used here based on geometry and trig (which are not perfect) to project wing loading parallel to gravity. Acceleration, speed and sink rate of the SLSA vs soaring trike are dramatically different. After entering a spiral dive at typical roll and pitch limits, the response timing is much more critical on the SLSA as sink rate is much more dramatic than in soaring trike. Response timing on soaring is still important but you have more than small fractions of a second like the SLSA. Having said that, proposed minimum entry altitude of defined maneuver at 1500' is some what arbitrary or perhaps more based on what is needed for the SLSA in this example, since it is certainly possible and safe to initiate a spiral dive in the soaring trike at half that altitude (750') as long as timing of control inputs are appropriate. Oh, and BTW the effective wing loadings on the SLSA are essentially approaching what you might see on the wing suit junkies although many other differences too.

    So why might this be relevant? Well a student PIC on the heavily loaded SLSA can't really afford to "freeze" on the controls or if he/she does then "unfreezing" must be almost instantaneous. Well you can't really afford to "freeze" up on the soaring trike either but you have a wee bit more time to "unfreeze". Notice in Larry's demo video that both of his hands were inches from the instructors bars with student doing maneuver because Larry knows very well how quickly changes happen in the heavily loaded Revo.

    Of course the lightly loaded soaring trike is much more affected by non pilot induced disturbances so that uncontrolled variables such as turbulence can much more easily push a slight turn into a spiral dive. Although it can also happen in the heavily loaded SLSA it will not happen as easily. In any case, if there are any non believers out there that believe you can not get into a spiral dive with a lightly loaded large wing then my guess is you always fly in extremely benign conditions and have not been flying long enough. All flex wings can enter a spiral dive either intentionally or unintentionally but wing loading and flying speeds have a big impact on how fast things happen or how quickly it progresses, what kind of altitude loss may occur, and what kind of response time is needed.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    All you guys are a hoot. Especially leo the new bee. Hay bud, any in my super revo, it gets my attention. Always thinking and being on allert is healthy no matter how big the bumps are.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Joe, yes bud.
    No matter what wing, wing loading, altidude, turbulence, etc. the proceduere is the same. At high bank angles in a spiral, pull the bar in, roll level and reduce the throttle all at the same time.
  • jeff trike
    by jeff trike 1 year ago
    Leo,
    I watched your video again and saw at least 3 other trikes circling at your altitude. If there was any wind, those prop wash streams will drift around and possible into your path if you are circling. At your 3 hr solo hours for the flight, any turbulence would seem much worse that what you would feel if you repeated the flight later on. The best way to avoid prop wash is to stay above trikes you are following, which you can easily check my making sure the other trikes appear below the horizon line.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 1 year ago
    That seems logical Jeff, and perhaps that was the cause.
    But regardless of the reason, it can be disconcerting to a new student pilot, especially if it's something that causes extreme changes in flight attitude. The lack of experience at this stage of pilot skills can result in a dangerous loss of control.

    I think it's safe to assume, that if my reaction had not been as quick as it was, the angle of roll would have increased until the nose dropped. That, would have been the beginning stage of a potential spiral.

    The reason I posted the video was not to analyze the cause, although I think you may be right about the turbulence cause by other tikes around me. But to prove a point that things like this can happen, especially early on in one's flying experience.

    This thread is about providing training/experience at the student level through the PTS, as well as informing experienced pilots. And although I don't have an opinion on how that should be done or handled, I do believe it should be recognized as important and dealt in a manner all can agree upon.
  • Doug Boyle
    by Doug Boyle 1 year ago
    I find it interesting in this spiral phenomena to study "Vortex Breakdown" as it relates to Vortex Lift in Delta Wings. The more I read on the subject the more I realize that today's wings are entertaining the many variables inherent in the Unsteady Vortex Flow. When the wing is banked the effect is greater than when the wing is pitched. There are stabilizing effects due to roll but more destabilizing effects as well. I can't help but wonder if all current research on the subject has been incorporated in the new blade wing designs....
  • jeff trike
    by jeff trike 1 year ago
    One thing missing from all this discussion is spiral dives are too much fun. Watching the altimeter unwind at 1500 ft/min is a thrill. It is an aerobatic type maneuver for those of us who avoid aerobatics. If you need to loose altitude in a hurry, a stable, steeply banked spiral dive is great, but lets face it they are a lot of fun without the fear. If you are burning off 7000 ft of altitude, the spiral dive lasts many minutes, more that enough time for the the adrenaline surge and euphoria alter your mental state. A cycle of brinkmanship in your own mind starts. Can I bank it steeper, can a get airspeed higher, can I go around one more time before leveling out? Guard against this, especially in that last 1000 ft of altitude above the ground.
  • Michael Huckle
    by Michael Huckle 1 year ago
    Forgive me tossing in a few thoughts and then going away another 5 years....

    There are quite a few technical issues that can cause a pilot to be "unable to level the wing"
    (also known as "stuck in a spiral");
    eg; something caught up in the control frame... cables.... helmet
    tear in the wing sail
    breakage in outer leading edge
    windshield failed and catching air skew

    Then there is the fact that many wings are heavy to roll and even heavier to unroll

    The greatest example I've ever seen is the Ken/Henry "unable to level wing".

    And it reminds me of something my first trike instructor told me about two hours into my trike lessons...
    he said if you are ever battling to undo the bank in the wing (IE; unable to level the wing),
    pull the bar in, undo the bank, and allow the bar back out.

    Personally I think that is a good fix for the problem, without any complex discussion
    on energy management or stalls or whatever.

    Lastly, some mental attitude and level of determination could be required.
    eg; if your right wingtip is way up there and it's not coming down.....
    put both your hands on the right-hand control bar junction (up there on the right hand side)
    and pull it to your crotch with 150 lbs of force.

    ;-) okay... one more last thing....
    in the Ken/Henry video, Ken has decided to help himself with the unrolling of the wing
    by placing one hand on the downtube.
    Unfortunately, he put the wrong hand on the downtube.
    He needs the left hand on the left downtube, and then he could PULL that downtube
    all the way to his body. (right hand needs to be on the control bar, not on the downtube)

    Regards,
    Mike
  • John Olson
    by John Olson 1 year ago
    Chuckle, I don't see what big difference it makes where exactly you put yer mitts. You can still shove.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Thanks for everyone's comments and input. Very helpful. I have put everything together and sent it off the FAA as they requested so we will see what happens.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Bill,
    I moved your comment over here because it is a good one.

    Trike Pilots: Paul, Larry Abid, Bryan, etc, "Excuse my naivete," but due to the recent discussions concerning "Spiral Dives," and certification requirements, "I have this question." Looking at my most recent addition of Flight Magazine, related to "Engine Out's, Dead Stick Landings and hastily derived, Landing Spots," they discuss "Corkscrew Dives," for below craft, emergency power out landings. Isn't this the same as a "Spiral Dive," and if it is, obviously, it should be a training and certification requirement? Would enjoy hearing from you or anyone else on the subject!
    11 hours ago
    joey martin joey martin a controlled emergency decent is not what the out of control spiral dive issue is.

    The terminology is everyone defines things differently.
    From industry research this is how I have defined the terms in my Weight Shift Control Aircraft Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge

    Terms and definitions
    For the purpose of this chapter, the following definitions are provided:

    High banked turn – a 45 degree to 60 degree banked turn in a climb, level flight or descent.

    Very high banked turn – greater than 60 degree banked turn in a climb, level flight or descent.

    Steep spiral – Maneuver that results in a high to very high banked turn stabilized as a climb, level flight or descent. There is no acceleration or any increase or decrease in speed during a stabilized steep spiral.

    Spiral dive- Steep to very steep turn that becomes a progressively tighter turn and/or increasing airspeed and/or increasing bank angles over time. In comparison to a steep spiral, a spiral dive is not a steady state maneuver and must be stabilized and/or corrected before aircraft limitations are exceeded.

    So Bill as Joey said above

    joey martin a controlled emergency decent is not what the out of control spiral dive issue is.
  • Bill Crow
    by Bill Crow 1 year ago
    Thanx Paul. As usual, your responses are well researched, instructional and to the point. I thank you and hope the material helps others to understand the maneuvers and "Spiral Dive Maneuvering." It would still appear, it can be utilized as a "Corkscrew Dive," the elements, being almost identical, with the exception of the manner, it is encountered. Losing altitude quickly, in an emergency quest, for a "landing spot, directly below the aircraft and limited by other available areas, such as a congested environmental concerns, create "Desperate actions under desperate circumstances," right?.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 1 year ago
    Not sure what a corkscrew dive is but i like to do spirals for fun and to loose altitude quickly. It is an impressive maneuver for intro flights to show how quickly a trike can turn.
  • Bryan Tuffnell
    by Bryan Tuffnell 1 year ago
    Hey Bill, I'm chuckling here because I got confused by the terms these guys use too: Down Under where I come from, a spiral descent is also known as a corkscrew and it's a steady state autorotation or close to it; Larry calls this a spiral dive. What we call a spiral dive is an accelerating spiral descent and hasn't been discussed much here.

    But suppose we're flying off to a little grass strip near a country pub one evening. When we get close, we find a layer of cloud beneath us, 3000 feet above the ground, and it's getting dark. We spy a little hole in the clouds directly above the strip. We're in a hurry - the pub only has a limited stock imported Kiwi beer, and what's worse, LARRY AND PAUL ARE ALREADY AT THE BAR - if we don't hurry down, we'll be left with nothing to drink but Budweiser!!! So, we go for this tiny gap. We want a fast descent rate to beat the others to the fine imported IPA's, we want a tight turn radius to stay clear of the cloud. So,we throttle off, bank right over, and don't push out to coordinate the turn. Yippee!!! IF we're being moderate, we'll adjust the turn tightness by adjusting pitch, gently lifting the nose to tighten the turn, but that will come at the expense of more g's and affects sink rate, so we'd be cautious with this. Anyway, we get down through the clouds in a corkscrew dive, or descending spiral. Because it's a high g turn, we know that to roll out we first remove the g's, by throttling back and pulling in before rolling level. No mess, no fuss, and the Budweiser stays behind the bar. PHEW!

    We know that on some wings the above situation requires a little more monitoring. Why? Larry states above that trikes are more vulnerable to spiral dives than other aircraft because they dump lift due to flexing when under high g's. There's another reason, and that's the strong roll-yaw coupling of a swept wing. If the wing is banked and the nose is down, the wing will try to align itself with the wind it 'feels'. If we're banked to the right and descending, this wind is from the right and from underneath, so the wing yaws to the right and the nose drops. This leads to more roll, more yaw, and the nose drops further. Some trikes stabilise, some keep on going. Here in NZ, this is what we call a spiral dive. At some point we need to stop this before the speed, bank and g's get excessive. It's still nothing more than a type of high g turn so our response is just the same as before. Michael Huckle said it: if you can't undo the bank, unload the wing by reducing throttle and pitch.

    If you fly straight and level and close your eyes, or let go of the bar, most any trike will slowly wind into the simply-MUST-get-to-the-pub-before-Larry-and-Paul-drink-the-Kiwi-beer descending spiral mode. The classic way of dying from flying in clouds occurs from just that reason - no visible horizon, the wings go out of level, the aircraft yaws towards the lower wing, nose drops, and away we go into an accelerating spiral.

    Whatever the term used or however we think of it, they're all just high speed/high bank angle/high g/nose down turns. Whether they're deadly, scary, fun or useful depends on our comfort in a single skill: rolling level.
  • Bill Pilgrim
    by Bill Pilgrim 1 year ago
    Bryan, I hope you are an instructor over there in Kiwiland, because you certainly have an excellent ability to communicate you message. Good stuff.
  • Paul Dewhurst
    by Paul Dewhurst 1 year ago
    Paul - I think your written definition of a spiral dive concurs with ours in the UK - except with the addition of ' and / or increasing G.

    In our syllabus we would only use the term 'spiral' in a descending context, and only use it again for a 'spiral descent' - which is any variation of steady state descending turn - which covers a power off gliding turn coordinated to minimise descent rate, thru to a high airspeed descending turn to maximise descent rate.

    It is important that students and pilots know the distinction between the controlled ' spiral descent' and the accelerating developing emergency situation which is the spiral dive.

    The 'dive' description is I think a good one in this context, as it is an emotive term, clearly distinct from the more sober sounding descent and glide, and implies peril!

    Personally I don't care too much for the 'spiral' tag being used for anything except the spiral dive, as I think it promotes confusion and a descending controlled turn, can do without 'spiral' being used to describe it. But it was already in use when I started training in the mid 80's so I have just done my best to draw a clear distinction between the two.

    The dictionary(s) definition of 'spiral' is not 100% clear, and does often include 'helix' , but seems to mostly like to describe it as a curve around a point that winds inwards or outwards from the centre point - so seems to better describe our 'spiral dive' than our 'spiral descent'.

    In the fixedwing vs flexwing debate and which is most suceptible to a spiral dive, my experience ( I teach currently on both and have equalish time doing so) is that there is no intrinsic difference in suceptibilty due to mishandling. However give me a trike any day for inadvertent cloud entry. Simply reducing power to idle makes every trike I have flown either positively spirally stable or worse case neutral. Then simply waiting it out with bar lightly held central will give a very good chance of coming out of the bottom of the cloud with all bits of the plane still attached to one another in a serviceable way. However a fixedwing has a rudder to mess things up and give false impressions of bank when blind and also destabilise any spiral stability, so a much greater risk of rapid progression to structural failure in cloud.

    Paul
  • Bryan Tuffnell
    by Bryan Tuffnell 1 year ago
    I can't help but wonder if there's a group of trike pilots who always turn with shallow bank angles and don't use pitch and throttle when turning. Because trikes are intrinsically forgiving of minor mis-coordination, this works just fine... up until misfortune places them in a high bank/high g/nose down situation, where the effects throttle and pitch on roll response is foreign to them. For pilots who pitch up and add throttle in steeper turns and remove throttle and pitch to roll level again, the correct response is automatic.

    Just a thought...
  • Bill Pilgrim
    by Bill Pilgrim 1 year ago
    Bryan, I think you are spot on. I also think, if you look closely at the circumstances surrounding a high percentage of these accidents, you will find they involve a pilot with a little experience on a docile wing, who has recently transitioned to a high performance wing. This is when they first encounter the high bank/high g/nose down situation.......
  • Noel Clifford
    by Noel Clifford 1 year ago
    Hi Bryan,
    I note your reference to Budweiser vs Kiwi Beer didnt draw a response from anyone. There must not be many beer connoisseur amongst the triking community. That I find hard to believe.
  • Bryan Tuffnell
    by Bryan Tuffnell 1 year ago
    Hey Noel, that's a worry - perhaps they're all ashamed of themselves, maybe they're shandy drinkers. Here we're all hang glider pilots, so we're expected to know our beer - it's not even part of our flight training syllabus. Perhaps we need a Call To Action - after a recent spate of pilot indifference to high quality beer, I have decided to pursue having Fine Beer Recognition added to the PTS. On second thought, that might turn into Spiraling Beer Excess Recovery, where one has to pull out to straight and level before hitting the floor...
  • Bill Crow
    by Bill Crow 1 year ago
    Paul Hamilton, Paul Dewhurst and a "Elated Thanx," to Bryan Tuffnel, "Thank you for the benefit of, your experience, interest and thorough understanding, relative the above noted issue, concerning Spiral Dives." I am sure anyone reading the material from this forum, has benefited, significantly, from your, knowledge, experience and valued insights. "I know I have!" Bryan, if your ever in New Hampshire, USA, look me up and "I'll furnish you with all the "Craft Beers of your choice," on me!!!"
  • Joe Hockman
    by Joe Hockman 1 year ago
    Hey Bryan, fantastic idea. We most definitely should pursue a "Call To Action - pilot indifference to Fine Beer Recognition" and have it added to the PTS. It appears to me that this has reached a crisis level of epic proportion. Unanimous consensus on the need and justification should be easy to secure.
  • Lindsay Mannix
    by Lindsay Mannix 7 months ago
    Hi All,
    and thanks to Paul who rightly pointed out that side slipping turn are not spiral dives than there is the flat spin vs the spiral and the confusion continues .
    I'm rather new here as far as posting goes but I'm from way back as far as trikes go.
    There is so much valuable and informative info here I thank everybody for making this resource the
    kind of triking bible that it has become

    Here is my 2c on spirals and other things I can only hope that it proves useful to others as we go forward .

    Firstly as we increase wing loading for reasons of performance and speed we enter an environment where stall turns can become spins that are not easy to recover from . All of the well meant videos show what we who are wise, quickly recover from . I have yet to see a video ,allowing the spin to develop into a stable condition as is the regular practice with 3 axis.
    A low performance combination with "flex" will recover ,or rather not enter a stable spin condition unless held there .


    The lighter trikes are surely safer than their big brothers yet for training the high speed units are well suited.
    While a few of us like cross country flights we always wind up back home so , does it matter how big the circles are?
    I find that the faster the machine, the higher I have to fly for safe landing reasons . If doing 70 knots and landing at 40 it is going to hurt unless I have a good road or a hard lake or beach ,which I will only discover when its way past decision time .

    If flying a slow wing with a 15 knot stall I can dump it in almost any where with not too much worry about injury.The trike and wing may suffer but hey its all cheap unloved hp hangliders that are very affordable.
    So the elephant in the room seems to be high wing loading and tight sails that really need a tail and a rudder .
    This is not to say that they are dangerous but they offer more danger than the more affordable slow machine . Which may well be the point .
    Recognizing a stall turn and recovering before our weight shift kills us is key to this. and it is what the spin training is all about.
    In general aviation you put on a hood and the instructor says your aircraft ,you raise the hood ..you don't feel anything but the earth is spinning and you identify which way after first pushing the controls forward ... can we really do that in a hp trike ? Apart fro the fact that the hood would become prop fodder?

    Think about letting that spin stabilize , better still somebody do a video of one..Im joking!!
    My firm belief from all of the evidence and from model trikes I have made and some half turn spins ( would never let it go any further)is that if a fast , high weight trike stabilizes in a spin it will be unrecoverable because the centrifugal forces will be too great to overcome without some mechanical aid .
    The cg will effectively move back too far .
    Recognizing a spin is key and recovery before it stabilizes is vital .

    There are many hanglider pilots here ...what happens when you flat spin with full vg on ?
    the force required ? ok now quadruple it!

    People who make their living from training have bills to pay and family's to feed so commercial
    interests can be conflicting . I take my hat off to those who have the tenacity and patience to train
    others but in the old days, if you didn't know engines and hangliders well, you quickly bowed out of
    triking ..now , a fist fill of cash and a formal training facility has you pretending to be a real aircraft
    with performance that any well made 3 axis modern ship with skins that out last our sails by decades would sneer at .
    Wind in your face ? yeah? 25-30 knots is pretty nice but 70 knots ? Heated suits??its all bad and that's what cockpits were made for .
    The guys who suit up and fly above 10,000 and go across the country are missing most of the view even though they pay well for it ...but may be far more comfortable with cabin heat their loved one beside them .

    In conclusion the less spoken issue in this room is that if a high wing loading tight trike had to demonstrate recovery from a fully stabilized, flat spin/spiral, as 3 axis aircraft are, I would be surprised if they passed or survived.
    Even a c152 with full fuel and some baggage can be unrecoverable from a spin with an aft cg . Yet as a GA pilot we regularly put the load further back for better fuel economy ,after all the only stall we will ever do is a few inches above the runway . This is with a machine that has a 40 knot stall (full flaps gear down) and a 140 knot cruise .

    I'm not suggesting that fast trikes are unstable but insisting that this condition is carefully
    considered and treated with great respect for all of the right reasons .

    I am happy to be corrected by those who's real life experience is different from mine .
    Less happy to be corrected by opinion based on sales literature and google .
    But welcome discussion and thank you all for your input .
    Light trikes are really the way to be a part time aviator and relish the beauty at whatever altitude ,but, are fair weather machines .



    P.S. I'm developing a small strap on ah /compass unit that attaches to the front strut in line with the actual horizon ...
    I cant understand why this has not been done yet as the hardware is not expensive .
    Lindsay
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Lindsay, I love my light, slow REV for example, but I must admit I fly my heavy fast REVO over 10X more. The reason is simple. I can. And I also own a Cessna Skycatcher and fly the REVO 100X more.

    My REVO is my Goldwing in the sky and my REV is my dirt bike in the sky and my Cessna is my Toyata Camry in the sky. Since I fly for fun, practicality doesn't help the Cessna earn points since it is more or less climate controlled and much faster with a 132MPH cruise.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Lindsay, your thoughts on light wing loading trikes being immune is simply not true and a dangerous message to those flying them. Better to be prepared regardless of what you fly....

    I have saves in a 19 meter single surface (on floats) and a 15 meter double surface on a 582 from the back seat as the pilot lost control in a spiral. I also have saves in a 12.5 and a 10.9 from the back seat same as above.

    But the biggest thing I have tried to make clear is you don't have to have a stall involved to corkscrew into the ground. Certainly in Henry's legendary video a stall was involved. But simply wanting the nose to come up from a "spiral descent" cannot always be accomplished by pushing forward.

    I do full heartedly agree with you that super flat wings can carry some additional risk. One of the flattest wings on the market right now is one of the safest in my opinion and another super flat wing is one of the most dangerous in my opinion. Don't ask me to reveal who I'm thinking of. But my point is the wing design is still more important than the twist. We have over 30 degrees of twist in our RIVAL S wing for example and it will spin and spiral for you if you ask it to (see videos) it will also recover within a second if you ask it to. The PROBLEM is when a pilot doesn't know HE ASKED THE WING TO SPIRAL... And odds are the same pilot will not know to ask it not to.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Wow i just reread this incredibly long thread. Many different opinions from many well respected pilots. I have purposely strayed from comment because i wanted to hear what people have to say. I think that alot of times are choice of words or how we percieve them gets ambiguously distorted. Also the backgrounds we come from. Purposed spiral stall recovery hummmm. Well i know clyde poser , i have flown with him , respect him and his judgement! Paul hamilton , larry, i have not met but i respect them as well. Why because they have more exsperience than i do. But then i may be lower time in trikes but i am certainly not a newbie iether surviving hang gliding scince 1979. There are differences in wings, and the way they recover. Personally if flying with some common sense i believe that slow larger ,lighter loaded wings offer an elevated degree of safety , with slower speeds and more float. But certainly not immune. I wouldnt be to hard paul on lindsey nessasarily using the danger word. He put in his 2cents and immune may have not been the best choice of words. Larry i dont really see the rev nessasarily as a lightly loaded trike(not putting it down) just saying with the exsposed round tubing it has a higher drag. Spiral dive fatalitys in hang gliding were mostly do to pilots doing wing overs at low altitudes trying to impress people or neglegently flying into ridge rotors. NOT THAT EASY TO DO! trikes i think it happens more by being complacent. Lets take jeffs input he does them for fun to lose altitude. Seams that he has enjoyed quite a few years flying. I also respect tonys ,doug boyles my buddy joes imput. There are many ways to incorperate knowlege of spiral dives.So iam going to leave it to you (the experts). I would just like to add what has served me well over the years. You can learn alot from others with a well thought out plan on the ground. Make sure your exsperiments are done with more than enough altitude. Dont be in a rush to keep up with the exsperts (they make mistakes to). When flying close to your mother keep your dam airspeed up or shell whip your ass. How you deal with comimg in contact with the ground is going to have the final solution no matter what you fly. How not to get into a spiral dive should be the first part of the training with possably an example from an instructor as pic. Not practiced as a student . And after a pilot has demonstrated skills in medium conditions an add on with spiral dive recovery training. I mean paul what are we going to do add on for every dragon thats out there . Rotor training ,wind shere training, cloud suck training. To much for the beggining pilot. I always liked when scott johnson told me grass roots (lets just get up there and learn how to fly the dam thing ? Paul ,larry,abid,tony ,clyde ,doug ect. I learn from you all.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Ment larry not paul. Just think he didnt mean they wouldnt spiral dive by saying immune.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    If anyone wants my option on spiral dives simply read what is posted above/before. No sense repeating myself.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Here is an interesting story about a training flight yesterday.

    I am training in Cornina California and flew my trike down here xc over the sierras because I was asked to use it as an example for the class and I like flying rather than driving.

    After class I asked anyone if they want to go up. A new trike pilot said "yes but it is really windy." A said "you decide, it can get better, stay the same or get worse".

    Ok we decided to go up. It was nasty for the first pattern. I asked if he wanted to land or go out and do some air work to relax a while at altitude. We did. Now coming back it land, guess what happened? It had got worst. We worked on my tasty/turbulent/knarley flight techniques.

    We did a low approach and he flew and it was almost uncontrollable down the runway for him. We went back and I landed.

    After Jim decompressed, I asked "so how was it? "Incredibly valuable to fly above what I would do. Now I know what it is like in those conditions. Thank you for that experience it may be a lifesaver"

    Getting qualified training above and beyond your current capabilities/comfort level may save you life.........
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    An update from the FAA on this concept. They are trying to decide if this is going to be a requirement for the pilot and/or just the CFI. If it is for just the CFI (similar to the spin requirement for airplanes) it would be pretty useless.....
  • Lindsay Mannix
    by Lindsay Mannix 7 months ago
    Larry,
    I didn't mean any offense and not did consider that I was giving poor advice to the less in formed ,rather the opposite .
    I'm very sure that in your position I would be flying my rev a lot more because it is currently one of the few the growth areas of aviation and I would be able to afford it . You can pick up a functional Cessna here for less that a fast trike due to something called "SIDS" .
    I did not use the term "immune" and rather than put words in my mouth it might be better to specify to those who might not have the benefit of your experience of what wings are safe rather than mention that you know but aren't saying because??

    Like I did say, commercial interests have always conflicted with aviation safety .

    Please do a video with the rev in fully developed spin rather than a quick "oh shit!!" like we all do when the bar goes light or pulls the wrong way. I'm still joking!

    BTW I fully respect all you have offered to those less experienced than yourself and don't want to seem adversarial but Ive an axe to grind here .

    I lost one good friend to a "wind in" in the late eighties not in the stats ..he was an experienced hanglider pilot and I'm sure that he knew what happened but still spent 45 seconds nose down with no chance of pulling out . WE will never know if he had acted sooner whether he and his passenger would be living today .
    I have had many years to experiment and draw conclusions that im not entirely comfortable making and im sure that if my lively-hood depended on it I may be influenced in a different way .
    I have had the sail rumbling across the crossbars with light bar pressure only once!

    I suppose I want this spiral ,wind in ,whatever you want it called ,exposed for the good of all ....and offer this ..Once you get too far you might not come back ...the less "flex" the less chance of coming back . the heavier or the greater mass the trike is compared to the wing, the greater the risk ,and of course there are exceptions and nothing is immune from anything most especially where gravity or rather, forces perpendicular to the wing are the primary control force.
    I love trikes for all the right reasons . I know what they can and cant do and yes, Im still learning things that if not for your and others valuable input would not have been clarified .
    Perhaps a speed stall was involved ?
    There is no question that new pilots need to know the limitations of whatever they fly .
    And im sure that being able to identify it early is vital for all pilots
    I just think we have reached a point where we should tread carefully and err on the side of caution. The future is a long time.
    The need for speed has never meant better quality flying and quite the opposite is some cases .
    You know if the wright brothers could see all the nasty commercial machines and weapons they might turn in their graves ..yet to visit a hangliding meet or a trike event they might shine with pride ..


    What about a 40 sqft wing? the 912 has the horses . now .. stall turn that ?
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Paul iam not oposed to spiral dive recovery being taught . I just dont think it should be at the beggining of persuit . Its a advanced manuver. I would love to get advanced training from you or larry or abid ,tony castillo . No faa dictate prevents me from doing that now.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    All trikes and flex wings will spiral and we are all succeptable to get into one for a number of reasons. I learned to spiral decades ago in a hang glider to get down fast and also they are allot of fun. Spiral recovery is basicly the same no matter what size, shape, weight, washout, etc. Trying to figure out what the point is here. Are we for or against spiral recovery training? I am for it because it saves lives.........
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    WE,
    Come on by some time. Would be honored to work with you in trikes. I teach/demonstrate manevours/procedures I do not mention here......
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Ty paul. I must admit that i agree with tony c that we dont want new pilots practicing spiral dives. Student overload i think should be concidered. I mean that in the first 50 hours throttle , airspeed management should be being honed. A cfi as pic could demonstrate with altitude what happens in a spiral dive and go through recovery processes . But a new pilot should be instructed in avoidance to a later time when they have the nessesary knowlege of conditions and all other skills are redundant! I also wanted to mention something that i havnt heard anyone talk about. As a pilot enters flying in more exstreme conditions there are some very good reasons to have practiced spiral dives and recovery. You might remember bob abits fatality in the 80s at sandia peak. We were taught when caught in cloud suck to first try to spiral dive to fall below the cloud suck. If that failed you took your hook knife and cut your hang strap and look for a chute. So clearly knowing how to enter and exit a spiral dive has some safety advantages.
    Looking over the fatalitys in the last 5 years that most were spirals of some sort , I draw the conclusion that it is not the begginer but the intermediate to advanced pilot that spirals in
    One you know was my first instructor. Two others were very dear friends and two more were in a trike id flown with a wing i wasnt fond of and i will mention it.(arrow). I personally think that having an itermediate spiral endorsement would be a better choice and you could also include the ability to fly more challenging conditions. Look at how hang gliding has cleaned up its act with making pilot endorsements to fly different conditions. And the fatalitys have dropped significatly!
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 7 months ago
    Is adding spiral dive recovery to the CFI PTS really useless? It sounds like even within the CFI community there's a wide range of ability levels and recovery techniques used, so some standardization there could certainly help things.

    Also, why is it hard to get people to talk about what wings are more likely to accidentally enter spiral dives or harder to get out of a spiral dive? Different wings fly differently; Larry is very proud of the low roll control forces required on many of the Revo wings, people with big 17 meter wings like their ability to land at low speed in a tight space, etc. In the fixed wing world some airplanes have much better spin characteristics than others. It would be very surprising if all wings had identical spiral characteristics...
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Jake, with respect to certain planes being easier to get into a spin I don't really think that's necessarily true with my experience that I have. Now getting them out of a spin is totally a different story with planes like the Cirrus that cannot recover from a spin at all. Some won't spin, but they ALL can spiral.

    A wing that is more susceptible to entering an unintentional spiral will only speed up the INEVIDABLE, which is at some point entering an accidental Spiral. So of we use less suseptible as the solution, we are only prolonging the pilots career which will still end the same way when they can't recover from lack of knowledge.

    Now some wings do NOT recover quickly from a slipping spiral and that in my opinion IS a safety issue because good spiral recovery training will not fix the problem immediately making low altitude recovery not possible.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Jake and WE. Although there could be enough of a pattern already, it is not just "those wings" that are involved in spiral fatalities. One thing that Edsel Ford made perfectly clear to me on the subject, is that the FAA is aware that just about every type of wing (big, small, strutted and cable braced) have all been involved in these accidents.

    If you look at engine failure as a secondary "killer" of trike pilots you would think the 912 being far more reliable than all of the 2 strokes put together would have less fatalities associated with engine failures. Not the case though. The 582 fliers seem to be more aware of the possibility of loss of power, where as the 912 fliers tend to be more dependant on their power plant. The 2 strokes go down in fields and tend to fly again and the 4 strokes tend to go down once in an event involving an NTSB report. My point is the dead stick trained 2 stroke pilot that flies with an emergency glide to a landing field is my safer bet compared to the 912 flyer not giving a thought to an engine failure. Same goes for the pilot that practices spiral entry and recovery vs. the straight and level flier. I'll never bet on the pilot that states they are safe because they only fly in calm weather and never fly aggressively. Any way if you can follow my thought process... It's just better to know how to deal with a spiral than to try and avoid it through weather conditions, flying style or trike/wing selection.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Very informitive reply thanks larry
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 7 months ago
    Larry: I think knowing how to deal with a spiral is great; most people on this thread agree with "reduce power, bar in, roll wings-level, bar out to return to level flight." It's a question of is this something that needs to be put in the PTS, and the answer to that question should reasonably depend on how likely the event is to happen. If particular wings are more susceptible to inadvertent spirals it'd be a sign of safety consciousness on the part of the manufacturer to suggest purchasers receive additional spiral recovery training.

    Also, do you have any links to NTSB reports for fatal trike crashes due to an engine out with a 912?
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Hi Jake, I'm glad you agree spiral training IS good. At this point it is already in the FAAs hands so no need to debate weather or not that part is a good idea since its out of our control now.

    Not to nitt pick, but to nitt pick.... The forth step you mentioned in spiral recovery just above is a common mistake. Pushing the bar out after leveling the wing to stop the descent can overstressed the wing and cause a rapid pitch up on exit. This is a very intuitive and incorrect action as is adding throttle after leveling the wings after a spiral. And these are aspects that need to be addressed in spiral training. For anyone wondering, it is a few to several seconds after leveling the wings that the bar is let out AFTER the trike has leveled out and THEN the throttle is applied to continue level flight.

    Heck Gerrys accident in Hawaii is an accident report detailing a fatal impact after loss of power. There are a lot of them. No doubt engine failure has killed thousands in aviation throughout history.
  • Joe Hockman
    by Joe Hockman 7 months ago
    Since I commented on this thread months ago I thought I might as well add my comments now. First, thanks Lindsay for adding your perspective on this topic. I happen to agree with almost all that you said. I especially appreciate hearing your comments about wing loading, wing type, and how it can affect the s/d and recovery. We can benefit from your experience and knowledge on this.

    I also agree with Jake's comments. If FAA decides to add this to the CFI PTS then this would be very useful and in my opinion the best "first step". Clearly there is some variation among CFIs on experience with this, and whether this should be mandated demonstrated maneuver for the SP PTS. So getting all CFIs experienced and on the same page so to speak is a good first step.

    I would also suggest that manufacturers could play a role here. For example, Larry seems to believe this is very important for all trike pilots. Well I would not see any problem with Larry requiring all CFIs that represent the Revo and who may be selling a Revo to one of their students to provide spiral dive training. This way all owners of new Revo's would be trained. He could go one step further and request (mandate??) that all current Revo owners who have not had spiral dive get it. Perhaps even get all those folks to "agree" to not sell their Revo to a pilot that has not had spiral dive training. This in essence would in time insure that all Revo owners/pilots will have needed training which I would think should also be part of any transition training for pilots buying a Revo. Similarly, Kamron at NW could pursue a similar approach if he believed it was important enough. For that matter, AC, Airborne, Aeros, etc, etc could all take a similar approach. If all manufacturers essentially require such training then in effect all pilots in time will have appropriate training regardless of FAAs approach to introducing this into US training standards. Just a thought because I do not recall seeing anyone previously mention potential role of manufacturers in addressing this issue.
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 7 months ago
    Larry, thanks for the reminder to speak precisely. "bar out to return to level flight" doesn't distinguish between "gradually let the bar out respecting maneuvering speed limitations" and "push the bar to the front tube" yet the difference is very important.

    Of course, dunno how I forgot about Gerry's accident. Gerry obviously knew how to land after an engine failure; he'd done it before in the accident trike after running out of gas. After reading the NTSB report, do you think he may have entered into an unintentional spiral? The report says the trike impacted in a near vertical attitude and the probable cause includes "subsequent loss of aircraft control."

    If so it's another data point about the dangers of spiral dives, especially while close to the ground.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Jake, you are still missing it. You don't move the bar forward at all after leveling the wings. You will need to hold it in and then pull back some more as the nose comes up. The bar doesn't move forward until well after straight and level flight has been achieved.

    About Gerrys first accident after running out of gas... Did you know he crashed it and rolled it up side down when he landed? He did like $30,000+ damage. That's hardly knowing how to land engine off in my opinion.

    Regarding loss of control, yes possibly a spiral after attempting to stretch a glide. I was fortunate to fly with Gerry and assess his skills. He was weak in some areas even with 18000 hours. That's the truth.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    To further clarify my point about moving the bar forward, let me say it like this. The bar moves forward not to arrest sink rate, but after the sink rate has been eliminated by leveling the wings with the purpose of reducing air speed after the straight and level flight has been obtained. I consider it part of the recovery into normal flight, but not part of stopping vertical descent. If that's what you meant it wasn't clear and I didn't want that to be posted as a summary of how it's done for others to misinterpret.
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 7 months ago
    Larry, your video here is a great example of what I was trying to describe as "bar in, wings level, bar out": https://youtu.be/qFwNN_PVeRE?t=3m23s
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Jake, my apologies, I now realize you were quoting the video, but bar out to level flight without the video showing the aircraft is already in level flight can be confusing. Sounds like I should clarify better on my end in the video. I just want to clarify now that the bar is moved out in 1G flight and the trike continues in 1G level flight as the bar moves out changing only airspeed and not G force. The way the steps are listed it sounds like we are saying push the bar out to bring the nose up which is not the message that we want out there. Thanks for helping to uncover a misleading statement.
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 7 months ago
    It's not what you *said* in the video, it's what you *did*. As soon as the wings hit level (3:26 into the video) the bar starts moving out. Am I missing something?
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Hi Jake, yes I think you may be missing something. Take a look at this video which shows a much more aggressive spiral. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vgRVpw7TvrY In the video with the Skyper the spiral descent was so mild that by the time the wings were level the aircraft had already stopped descending. So, as I say above, letting the bar forward was not part of arresting the descent. It is much easier to see the entire procedure in the link that I just gave that has much better onboard perspective. Things are taking much longer because I am coming down much faster. But, no video could ever compare to a 15 minute flight lesson with an instructor qualified to teach spiral recovery. And if after rewatching the video in this post has uncovered something different than what you thought, that is the reason why I propose mandatory real world spiral recovery training.
  • Jake McGuire
    by Jake McGuire 7 months ago
    Hmm, neat video. A little frustrating in that your helmet just barely blocked the view of the airspeed indicator - I'm curious how fast you were going when you rolled wings level and how much speed built up in the subsequent dive. Overstressing the aircraft is bad and I'd hope that if most pilots felt a lot of positive G building they'd pull the bar in to reduce it, but maybe it needs explicit statement.

    Are you going to require mandatory real world spiral recovery training for Revo pilots? Is that even a thing that the manufacturer can do? Could you at least suggest it in the POH?
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Jake, this video is very old so I don't remember exactly. But it was around 90 MPH which is nothing for that wing. This is the video referenced in the one you posted. I also have a video showing an onset stall/spin scenario here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPhIc97z_4g - Video Tube for YouTube - iPhone/iPad
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 7 months ago
    Can't believe you guys are still going at this topic. Its simple and basic. Many people and CFIs unfortunately don't have a clue that high alpha degrades roll response and the right thing to do in an accelerated turning stall is to lower angle of attack and then roll level. Simple. Its over and done with in a second. That's the recovery.
  • John Glynn
    by John Glynn 7 months ago
    Everyone, I feel very strongly about this topic. Do no solo a student until they demostrate recovery from both directions. Remember a 3 axis pilot that inadvertently enters a stall in a turn near the ground is trained to typically "push" the nose down and "apply opposite rudder" I have had students in my ultralight trike training days that when in a decending spiral (not even stalled) push on the nose wheel to move an imaginary "rudder". They also have pushed out which just tightens the spiral. Not a problem with an instructor in the back seat and if you are at an altitude high enough to make a few mistakes in your recovery technique. Big problem if you do not have decending sprial training, revert to muscle memory of an airplane, and are only 1 mistake high. Such as the altitude in the pattern if you are turning base to final and hit some unexpected turbulence. Slow wings can have this happen at a slow speed, and fast wings can have things happen faster, I do not beieve the wing is a real factor. Recovery is fast, immediate, and stable. In addition for the 3 axis pilots out there, it is very difficult to spin most trike wings in my opinion, and to do so in hang gliders or trikes takes deliberate actions. Not necessarily more spin prone or unstable as some earlier posts implied. Just get the training, and stick around so we all have some people to fly with. Add to PTS for sport pilot, make sure unstructors can teach it, and very important to have any transiotioning airplane pilots demostrate until they have it like second nature. Do yourself a favor on your next bi-annual flight review and find a qualified instructor and learn. Thank you, John Glynn
  • Heather Davis
    by Heather Davis 7 months ago
    I'm with Abid on this one. In that quarter of a second you have to react, muscle memory is what is going to save you. Of course to possess that skill, you need to experience spirals and are instantly able to recognize them.
  • Charles Moore
    by Charles Moore 7 months ago
    My instructor and me went over this very thing last weekend. Yes, it was a little weird at first. In a straight and level stall my particular wing is very gentle. You really have to feel for it to know that it stalled. In the accelerated stall you know it. In my opinion all pilots should have training in accelerated stalls. Recovery is simple, but if you were never trained in the recovery method to begin with those few extra seconds figuring it out might make the difference between flying again or not.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    About the POH (now supposed to be called an AOI) there is a FTS or flight training supplement. This would be an area that may work for mandating spiral recovery, it certainly is the area that we SUGGEST transition training and key features of flying the different wings. It starts with our Discovery 13.5 which currently states "no special techniques needed" and then moves on to our other wings that wind up having 2 pages each of special instructions to fly our high-performance wings. This would be an area to mention spirals.

    On the other hand the latest configuration of the RIVAL S wing is pretty much stall proof in any configuration of normal operation. When a student learns on this wing they could theoretically hold the bar to the front strut and leave it there the entire flight. So should we not cover stalls with them since they don't need to know about it flying the RIVAL S? Heck no, they get yelled at for pushing the bar forward to go around instead of using the throttle and stall training is done sometimes in another aircraft to teach them what a stall is or at least simulated where I say STALL STALL STALL and they recover from the non existent stall properly. The bottom line is there is a general knowledge ALL trike pilots should have and hopefully you are not just safe flying a particular set up. So once again it is the "universal PILOT" that should be the focus and not the plane.
  • Lindsay Mannix
    by Lindsay Mannix 7 months ago
    I wonder if training aircraft need to be set up as required to "teach" the dangerous situations.
    Im not even sure that it is truly a spiral dive that has been killing people .I wonder if it may be a stall turn at at high weight that is specific to weight shift machines.
    At least that is what concurs with my experience and the many deaths (Usually 2 at a time) .

    At any rate its is better to teach flying in a high performance aircraft to show what bites when and where knowing that the pilots may never fly such an aircraft but cover as many bases as possible . This makes the more "dangerous " machines truly useful in the right hands.
    Not every body wants to fly fast ,trikes are hardly practical transportation unless your business is training .
    Given good weather the slower machine can easily out fly the faster one as far as enjoyment and "land-ability "goes.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    I just read the entire blog over again, what a great read... I thought I would mention my 2 favorite posts from above were Paul Dewhursts first of 2 posts and Mike Huckles post. Those 2 posts in my opinion just nailed it. If you can find it above they are worth a second read in my opinion.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    The big question is how do we avoid losing pilots as shown below in the "justification" to do something. For me to do nothing is not acceptable when I know additional training can save lives:


    With help from others I have tabulated 23 deaths worldwide that are most likely the result of spiral dives. There have been a few more but no direct link so I feel that I have here is sufficient.

    That else has materialized from a look at all the spirals into the ground is that most of these have been in the US.

    Why?

    Look at Australia who since a spiral death of two people in 1995 created a requirement for spiral training have only had 2 deaths from then since which is very recent.

    Look at the UK who have had spiral training in their training standards all along have had no spiral deaths.

    Look at the US who has had 19 deaths from spirals with no standards for spiral training. It appears this makes a difference.

    I feel this is enough to do something and follow the UK and Australia to include spiral training in the training standards.

    Here is a summary list of the spiral accident with the raw data links below that.

    1) 2 2005-02-07 NJ
    2) 2 2005-09-24 NJ
    3) 2 2006-09-20 Vermont
    4) 2 2007-08-25 NM
    5) 2 2008-01-19 Arizona
    6) 2 2008-09-06 Washington
    7) 2 1995-07-09 Australia - resulted in spiral training in Australia required for all pilots
    http://www.atsb.com.au/publications/investigation_reports/1995/aair/aair199502099.aspx


    A) 1 student 2014-07-02 WI
    B) 2 2012-10-08 Washington State
    C) 2 2011-12-13 Virginia
    D) 2 2009-09-25 Georgia

    Most recent
    2 2015-04-12 Australia

    23 total

    1) http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20050302X00250&key=1 (Feb 7, 2005, Air Creation Clipper 912, wake turbulence encounter from coast guard heli and then developing spiral into the ground without structural failure, 2 died).

    2) http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20051026X01727&key=1 (Sept 24, 2005, Air Creation Clipper 912, spiralled (no it did not spin, witnesses can't tell the difference) into the ground in NJ again).

    3) http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20061006X01480&ntsbno=NYC06LA227&akey=1
    (Air Trikes Tourist, Sept 20, 2006, tight spiral into the ground from steep bank turns at low altitude)

    4) http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20070904X01305&ntsbno=DEN07LA145&akey=1
    (August 25, 2007, 300 foot flight into a Canyon, inadvertent stall/spin = spiral after stall - spiral being secondary)

    5) Possible (no witnesses but no pre-impact structural damage evidence) http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20080208X00159&ntsbno=LAX08LA050&akey=1

    6) http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20080910X01424&ntsbno=LAX08LA290&akey=1
    ( Sept 6, 2008 -- Airborne stall turn to left and spiral 200 feet into the ground, spiral being secondary here)

    From Australia:
    ASTB advice from accidents in 1994
    https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24713/ASOR199502099.pdf

    A revised HGFA Weightshift Microlight Flying Instructor's Manual was issued. This included the following:
    "Spiral Dive Tendency
    Demonstrate the tendency for the aircraft to begin to "spiral" when excessive pitch pressure is applied with a nose down attitude in a steep turn. Demonstrate that the aircraft will recover from the spiral due to its pitch and roll stability, though height loss can be substantial if excessive pitch pressure is held until the aircraft stalls. Demonstrate that reducing pitch pressure and levelling the wings will reduce height loss.
    "Demonstrate that though the aircraft's tendency to diverge in roll is slow, it will increase if the aircraft is held in this spiral mode. Demonstrate that the aircraft can be readily rolled level by easing pitch pressure and applying weightshift.
    "Ensure that the student is able to recognise the onset of the spiral tendency and is familiar with the recovery techniques".

    One more recent from Australia:
    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/two-people-dead-in-light-plane-crash-in-nsw-northern-tablelands-20150412-1mj9eg.html
    Looks like classic nose down high bank classic nose down

    Some more from the US.
    A)
    http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20140703X04646&key=1&queryId=98cbb185-74b9-4803-876d-9c742d965d3d&pgno=1&pgsize=200

    14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
    Accident occurred Wednesday, July 02, 2014 in Omro, WI
    Aircraft: NORTHWING DESIGN APACHE SPORT, registration: N2725T
    Injuries: 1 Fatal.
    This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators may not have traveled in support of this investigation and used data provided by various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.

    On July 2, 2014, at 1900 central daylight time, N2725T, a weight-shift-control Northwing Design Apache Sport aircraft, experienced a loss of control and collided with the terrain in Omro, Wisconsin. The student pilot was fatally injured and the aircraft was substantially damaged. The aircraft was registered to the pilot and was operated as a 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 personal flight. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed. The flight originated from Wilke Field, a private airstrip, in Omro, Wisconsin.

    A witness reported seeing the aircraft in a descending spiral prior to it impacting the terrain.

    B)
    http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20121110X12436&key=1&queryId=98cbb185-74b9-4803-876d-9c742d965d3d&pgno=1&pgsize=200

    NTSB Identification: WPR13FA036
    14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
    Accident occurred Thursday, November 08, 2012 in Waterville, WA
    Probable Cause Approval Date: 05/08/2014
    Aircraft: NORTH WING SCOUT X-C, registration: N467XW
    Injuries: 2 Fatal.
    NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.

    During the flight, the student pilot was seated in the forward seat of the light sport airplane, and a pilot-rated passenger was seated in the aft seat, which was not equipped with flight controls. The student pilot was maneuvering the airplane over open terrain about 300 to 400 feet above the ground. A witness reported seeing the airplane turn left and then spin. The airplane continued spinning until it impacted terrain. Examination of the recovered airframe, engine, and flight control system components revealed no evidence of preimpact mechanical malfunctions or failures that would have precluded normal operation. It is likely that the student pilot inadvertently entered a stall and subsequent spin while maneuvering from which he was unable to recover. The Pilot’s Operating Handbook for the airplane stated that “deliberate spins and severe spiral turns are prohibited.”

    The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
    The pilot's failure to maintain control of the airplane while maneuvering at a low altitude, which resulted in a stall and subsequent spin from which he was unable to recover.

    C)
    http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20100823X81939&key=1&queryId=98cbb185-74b9-4803-876d-9c742d965d3d&pgno=1&pgsize=200

    14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
    Accident occurred Saturday, August 21, 2010 in Amherst, VA
    Probable Cause Approval Date: 12/13/2011
    Aircraft: North Wing Scout X-C, registration: N417JN
    Injuries: 2 Fatal.
    NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.

    A witness observed the weight-shift aircraft approach her location and descend toward a nearby pasture. Shortly thereafter, the engine "revved up" and the aircraft pitched up at a steep angle. The aircraft began to make a tight spiral turn and continued until the nose pitched down, consistent with entering a stall/spin, before impacting the ground and erupting into flames. A postaccident examination of the wreckage did not reveal any mechanical anomalies with the airframe or engine. The aircraft was equipped with dual flight controls, and a throttle control was located on the foot rest for the aft passenger. The pilot was seated in the front seat and the passenger was seated in the aft seat. The passenger had access to the throttle control located near his foot rest, in addition to the flight controls, and it is possible he manipulated the throttle inadvertently although the investigation was unable to definitively determine if this occurred.

    The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
    The pilot's loss of aircraft control for an undetermined reason.

    D)
    http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20090626X00349&key=1&queryId=98cbb185-74b9-4803-876d-9c742d965d3d&pgno=1&pgsize=200

    14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
    Accident occurred Thursday, June 25, 2009 in Cedar Town, GA
    Probable Cause Approval Date: 04/22/2010
    Aircraft: P&M Aviation LTD Quikr, registration: N433PM
    Injuries: 2 Fatal.
    NTSB investigators may not have traveled in support of this investigation and used data provided by various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.

    Witnesses observed the weight-shift aircraft in a spin before it collided with trees, and reported that during the uncontrolled descent, engine noise was smooth and continuous. Examination of the airframe and power plant revealed no evidence of preimpact mechanical malfunction. Weather recorded about the time of the accident, approximately 16 miles northeast of the accident site, indicated conditions were conducive for visual flight rules operation with winds from 210 degrees at 6 knots. The pilot's logbook was not located during the course of the investigation; however, examination of Federal Aviation Administration records indicated the pilot had approximately 300 hours of total flight experience, but the pilot's experience in weight-shift aircraft could not be established.

    The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
    A loss of aircraft control for an undetermined reason.
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 7 months ago
    I am a Brit (hooray) living in France and have learnt to fly the weightshift microlight (ULM Pendulaire down here) . I did by chance ask my instructor of the chances of entering into a spin caused by one wing stalling in a tight circle to which he replied (in French) "Don't worry .... it NEVER happens". I have now 70 hours, 50 solo under my belt and originally stummbled upon Paul Hamilton's video of the sprial dive which encouraged me to research further... and am I glad I did. WOW!! that was along read. Start to finish and included all videos by both Larry Mednick and Paul Hamilton some of them two and three times. Training here in France is different from the UK. I have taken advanced lessons with an English instructor in France since passing all my French permits and he has "ironed" out one or two areas he saw as important, but still no reference to spiral dives etc. I have no intention of putting myself in a position where such could happen (final words?) but "things happen" and now feel somewhat more confident I have a better chance of exiting a spiral dive in other than a wooden box. I would, if I could, take specific lessons with a skilled instructor to put in to practice what I have learned via this thread. That is probably not going to happen in France, the next time I am visiting the UK I will however try and find a suitably qualified instructor for this excercise. Who knows, maybe over kill but like paying for any other insurance I would rather pay up front and "waste the money" than have it hit the big fan and in the last moments wish I had spent another 100 euros and wasted 1 hour of my precious life. Larry Mednick and Paul Hamilton I thank you both
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Thanks Philip. Reb, I just talked to Paul on the phone and as you have read in my comments early in this post, I am NOT for stalling a wing in a turn with a student. As I said to Abid above (several months ago) I think a stall spin with a student can go horribly wrong VERY quickly, Paul seemed to think my idea I told him on the phone was not bad and would still get the training accomplished. so here it is:


    POWER OFF STEEP BANKED TURN. so basically, you enter a power off steep bank turn of no less than 45 degreased up to 60 degrees, much like the steep bank turn in the PTS you make a full 360 degree turn and recover without power and then add power only after the wings are level and the sink rate has been arrested to continue straight and level flight.

    Here is why I think this is a good idea:
    1) all trikes can do a power off steep bank turn
    2) recovery from this IS the recovery for spiral descent, spiral dive, spiral/spin
    3) No pilot should be afraid to practice this maneuver

    Today I did exactly the same with my fresh 1 hour student. so that is training we did in hour 1! thats all I think needs to be on the PTS and needs to be taught. If you practice the correct actions it doesn't really matter if the wing is stalled or the spiral is accelerating or you are doing it to shoot through a hole in the clouds to get down in an emergency.

    Does anyone have an objection to the power off steep bank turn?

    Does anyone think this will not demonstrate spiral recovery?
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 7 months ago
    That is exactly the manouvre my instructor used first to the left then to the right. It was amongst the training required to carry passengers in France. The angle achieved was to hold the tip of the wing static against a position on the ground. Executed at at 3000ft. I found the exercise not particularly pleasant but memorable
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Power Off Steep Banked Turn looks similar to the spiral recovery only with with a less scary name/title.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    It should be noted that there is a 20 degree turning stall in the PTS now. This will more than likely drop a wing. Many checkride applicants were never even taught this before their checkride.

    B. TASK: POWER-OFF STALL (WSCL and WSCS)
    REFERENCES: AC 61-67; FAA-H-8083-3; Aircraft Flight Manual/POH.
    Objective. To determine that the applicant:
    1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to power-off stalls. 2. Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no lower than 1,000 feet AGL. 3. Establishes a stabilized descent in the approach or landing configuration, as specified by the examiner. Transitions smoothly from the approach or landing attitude to a pitch attitude that will induce a stall. 4. Maintains a specified heading, ±10°, in straight flight; maintains a specified angle of bank not to exceed 20°, ±10°; in turning flight, while inducing the stall. 5. Recognizes and recovers promptly after the stall occurs by simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power to maximum allowable, and leveling the wing to return to a straight-and-level flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate for the weight shift control aircraft. 6. Accelerates to normal speed; returns to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner.
  • reb wallace
    by reb wallace 7 months ago
    must have said it wrong I believe any information you can give a student that can save his life is good including spiral dive I just don't think we need another regulation such as task: induced spiral dive exhibits knowledge how to recover from spiral dive, which causes the student to think they can go out and perform this maneuver and without experience can break a wing and break themselves just by thinking it's ok to perform this maneuver. my opinion for what it's worth is don't create an emergency if you don't have one.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Note the Australians and the British have spiral recovery in their training standards and they have had significantly less deaths of pilots spiraling/spinning/turning than in the US. Do we think there is a correlation?
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Reb, your thoughts on power off steep bank turn? Do you teach it? Would you have any objection to teaching it? Is it something every student should be taught?

    I hear you saying no more tasks on the exam which is the topic of the actual thread, but what about your thoughts on the task?
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Yes this is like the power on and off stall requirement in airplanes. First thing a student does when the wing drops is move the stick in the direction to raise the wing and put him into a spin. The stick stays there to raise the wing, keeping the inner wing stalled and the student spins into the ground. In an airplane, almost every student does exactly this in the first wing drop moment of panic. Hopefully we teach the proper technique so then the student goes out to practice as "they all do" to get ready for this PTS task.

    I am trying to figure out how the spiral recovery is any different from the airplane stall. I do both and from my experience I feel the airplane 20 degree bank power on and off airplane stall maneuver is much more dangerous for the student to practice.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Reb, you didn't answer my question(s). You did cover some other stuff that is super important, but back to the question:

    Do you teach power off steep turn and if not would you teach it? Do you have any objection to that? Clyde? how about you? or anyone that does object, please reply.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Any one else? Your options for the answer are yes or no...
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Paul your information is incorrect. Showing only 1 spiral crash in austrailia. In fact there was a fatality that occured when i was down there at megga faunna that spiraled into a house killing the pilot and small child. My dear friend buzzy bee and his wife spiraled in last year 2 fatalitys and just recently 2 were killed that most likely was a spiral induced from a ground breaking thermal. And another duel fatality in queensland that i dont know much about. Last i heard that the aviation authoritys were becoming quite concerned with the spiral dive crashes in austrailia.
    Not trying to be contentious but i personaly believe that the first line of defence should be enfisis on avoiding the flying attitudes that induce a spiral dive. I also take comments by qualified cfis dpes like clyde poser , tony costillo, reb wallace into account, i have respect for their opinions and i wont omit there exsperience. I have listened also to what larry has presented as answers for training. So i understand that there is a difference in what larry is saying from what paul is saying should be added. Should we take into concideration that their may be other factors going on scince the majority of the later crashes involve heavy 2 place trikes with fast wings. Do we have any real statistics that garantee paul is correct and fatalitys will go down. What if it causes more fatalitys. Paul iam not trying to be (confrontational at all) I am just asking why we should accept your view over other very exsperienced pilots , cfis, that we listen to like tony or clyde,or reb? Kinda like the current state of politics i dont have a clue what to think or believe? If are leaders are not even closely united than how can the rest of us be. I might go for what larry suggested a steep unstalled turn and snap out but a stalled spiral dive being practiced i have trouble believing that may be more than we bargin for.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Ok the other spiral dive dual fatality that happened in queensland was very simular to henrys spiral dive vidio .It happened near the beach over the water. So as far as i know thats 8 fatalitys in austrailia in the last couple of years. They have spiral training included. So why cant we draw a conclusion that spiral fatalitys are happening because people flying out of the envelope at low agl with very little response time for recovery. I just dont really know where to stand on this issue. If you look at henrys video had they not been distracted would it of happen, had the pic had a proper grip, not pushed out so much in turn, dropped throttle, Of course henry did a fantastic job from the back seat. But if they were 25 ft lower it wouldnt have been enough. I concluded that if we want to limit the number of spiral dive fatalities we need to:
    1. Keep your airspeed up when flying low
    2. Dont make excessive bank angles when low agl
    3. Pay attention for the unexspected (rotors, wake turb, birds. Breaking thermals, shear)
    4. Have a good knowlege of recovery from a spiral dive
    All covered in the handbook of aeronotical knowlege by paul hamilton and in the pts.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Paul said on the phone he thought the power off steep turn was acceptable. Can we get United as instructors stating that we are all comfortable with this maneuver? No is an exceptable answer. Can everyone get their instructors and manufacturers to weigh in on this.


    YES or NO being comfortable and happy and/or already teaching POWER OFF STEEP
    BANK TURN.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    WE you are correct about the string of spirals in Australia. But Henry and ken are admittedly alive today because Henry had spiral training and we were all aboard that trike together thanks to GoPro for that amazing "ride". I rest my case.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Want you to know i hear you larry and iam not totally against training for S/D training. I just think the specifics ought to be well thought out on how far we are willing to go with it . I mean it must concider manufacturers other than just revo, liability insurance maybe for cfis? But by the same example i can say that a composite of mistakes were made pryor to kens spiral that were all covered in sport pilot training. So training is only as good as a pilot is willing to follow it after there cut loose from there cfi. So if pilots feel comfortable including S/D into there platform without the dicipline of the highly exsperienced pilots we may be in for more fatalitys. Henry is my friend and i see him as diciplined and well trained (kudos larry). But not all pilots are cut from the same mold! So i will add my original point that for new flyers we pay just as much attention to how to avoid getting in to a serious stalled spiral dive . Because training quality is different from cfi to cfi. Do we really believe that by the time a student has been cut loose to solo he or she has developed the skills discipline and controled fear to practice s/dives when there instructor is not around. Because everything ive been told is that a newbie is just beggining to learn when hes cut loose. You have pilots that are afraid to fly in the smallest bumps that hold spl. Iam not totally against having it included . Hell who am i , ill follow the advice of those with more exsperience than me. If i had the bucks id come out to florida and grab from your knowlege. So if this is added to the pts what makes us think that pilots will be anymore better at following rules than they already are? Knowing how to get out of a spiral dive yes is a great piece of knowlege. Practicing spiral dives with low time skills to pass the spt is another! Iam probably getting myself in the dog do here again .So how do you teach spiral dive recovery in training and protect yourselves from those we disregard the rules? Just a question?
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Ps to be fair larry henry was not a newbie when he came to get spiral dive recovery training with you! IF spiral dive recovery is going to be added to the pts than its going to have to be practiced by newbies? Could it be demonstrated with a cfi and practiced with a cfi only?
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 7 months ago
    LOL...wow!!! ok, while we are at it, why don't we tumble trikes and (hopefully teach the recovery)..ok bad joke :) ... Many expert industry leaders like Clyde, Tony and Reb disagree with the idea of making Spiral Recovery part of PTS maneuvers. And I think we should respect their expert opinions too. But by constantly pushing this idea, you are being disrespectful to other industry leaders and their point of view. Unless if we think that Paul is the only one who represents our industry. Enough said.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Btw rizzy there is three solutions to a tumble 1look for your chute.2 a casket. 3. The one i prefer avoidance!
    I dont blame paul or larry or abid or anyone for atempts at solutions. And i think larry reached out for this. That community cfis ,dpes manufactures come together as a consensus with a well thought out common sense united plan to address the issue. That includes paul and ole scott johnson , clyde ,rebel. But ultimately i am responsable for the decisions that effect my safety. Ive said my piece as a pilot. I could be right or wrong. I just hope the leaders of this sport are all taken into concideration and they find reasonable solutions for the best interest in the course of safety for all pilots.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Rizzy, right now I am trying to determine if the objection from Cllyde, Reb, Bruce and Tony has to do with the original topic which seemed to involve a stall vs. clarifying the task or a new task differently. Is there a difference? If I am asking the exact same question a second time I apologize. So if they and others would comment regarding a 360 power off steep banked turn being on the PTS that is WELL THOUGHT OUT AND VERY SPECIFIC. With this task I know everyone is on the same page.

    Rizzy I am assuming from your comment you think the power off steep bank turn is dangerous for low time pilots to practice. If you read my original comment above I also was/am against stalling in a steep banked turn. So I AM with Clyde and others on that one. I am proposing something else specifically now. A NEW TASK.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Please everybody, do not take this personally, nor try to make sides, nor try to put one against another. We have a serious safety problem where we have identified pilots spiraling into the ground (Loss of control) and this IS TRYING TO GET FEEDBACK to solve this serious problem.

    AGAIN: There are a significant number of fatalities that would have been avoided if pilots were trained to recover from spirals/steep turns, whatever you want to call them.

    This is an effort to increase safety in the sport and we are simply getting industry feedback on finding a solution.

    I think this is a good question as to how other students/pilots/instructors approach this and feel about it. Some say it cannot happen, some say it is the pilots fault for getting then into the situation in the first place, etc...

    Lets look for solutions.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    I will say that I teach this along with the stall in a high bank to all students before they solo. It is not that tough, dangerous, nor extreme. Yes there is a few G's to deal with but that is the point. After they do it, it is a tool in their tool box to stay alive. If you will notice there are a number of pilots and instructors who have gone through it and it is really not that big of deal.

    As a said above, I think it is much less dangerous that the stall in the airplane.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Paul we know what you teach and thats you but do you represent the authority of every exsperienced cfi and dpe out there. Is there a systematic uniformity in all spiral dive training. Mayby theres cause that the faa wants it required training for cfis. There is some cfis out there that havnt amast that much exsperience logged as pilots. How do we know that they may put pilots in jeprody? Ive seen cfis make hugh mistakes. Example as an old hang glider pilot being a newbie to trikes i had warned my instructor that two nearby colapsing anvil heads was going to cause a serious gust front. I was completly ignored! Upon landing i was told to get off the throttle but i had no throttle on at all. Looking at the waves being pushed behind me i realized i was entering a lift band downwind from a gust front behind me. I added power and increased my airspeed and landed further down the runway and was told to go around again to my objection of another gust front coming from the oposite direction.following my instructor to taxi around and take off again we were hit by heavy gust front that blew my wife over. I barely got my trike back in the hanger. From my hang glider exsperience i saw that coming an hour pryor and was concerned! Paul you seem quite confident in yourself when you say its easy i teach full stall spirals all the time. You seem to have a certain attitude of iam paul and immunity. But ive seen a few of your videos in slow motion that we actually close calls and you handled them quite well. I dont see where anyone is making this personal or taking sides. Because i agree with clyde poser. Just concurring with there opinion. Iam not oposed to people with exsperience such as jeff who loves to do spirals either. I will agree with larry that what he suggest is acceptable training. As a cfi and dpe you make the case for full stalled spiral training based on your own confidence in your training . Maybe thats justified maybe not. Everyone i mean everyone can miscalculate a mistake. Maybe other cfis prefer a larger margine of safety! I think larrys aproach is more sound.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Paul not trying to be combative. I mean i hear what you say. If someone wants to come get full stall spiral training from you so be it. Might do it myself if i get out of poverty? But the issue is adding it as a requirement to the pts. Thats where i think larry has a point that you can teach spiral dive recovery technics with a high banked non stalled turn just the same . Question what do you think would be a minimal safe altitude for doing this training and conditional requirements?
  • Thomas Nielsen
    by Thomas Nielsen 7 months ago
    In one of the most iconic books on flying - Stick & Rudder by Wolgang Langewiesche - an entire chapter is devoted to why aircraft crash. In this book written more than 50 years ago, the cause for pilot deaths is overwhelmingly loss of control following a stall. Nothing has changed in 50 years, so WHY NOT address this subject in its various shades and forms. What is meant here is that stalls can come in more or less obvious ways - for instance, the medium to steep turn stall from level or climbing flight is "expected" or at least intuitive , however far more treacherous is the spiral dive because of two factors: 1) During descent the relative wind shifts causing what seems like a normal pitch to have a higher angle of attack. 2) As the aircraft descents 1000/ft a minute, and the pitch seems "normal", it is counter intuitive to reduce pitch in order to arrest the descent. Point is - For 100 years and counting, stall is where it is at - but stall comes in different disguise, some more obvious than others, for that reason there is no excuse to not address stalls in as many ways as are appropriate for the aircraft at hand.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Again: We have a serious safety issue where pilots are spiraling/steep turning into the ground and creating fatalities.

    Again: Reread the initial part of the blog. It is simply a steep turn (45 to 60 degree bank) with a recovery. No stall, no exceeding limitations, nothing that is dangerous nor unsafe. Much less dangerous/unsafe as a power on/of stall for an airplane.

    Again: No additional stalls are proposed here.

    Simply exiting a high banked turn greater than 45 and less than 60.

    Again:

    Objective. To determine that the applicant:

    1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to power off spiral recovery.

    2. Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no lower than 1,000 feet AGL.

    3. Reduces throttle and establishes a high banked minimum 45 degree descending turn at 1.6 Vs as specified by the examiner. Applicant simulates unintentional spiral by bumping to higher bank angle not to exceed 60 degrees and nose down attitude 30 degrees. Transitions smoothly and immediately from nose down high banked turn to level flight with 0 to 30 degrees bank angle.

    4. Minimizes altitude loss , with immediate correction to new heading with no more than 180°correction in direction from simulated spiral heading.

    5. Recognizes and recovers promptly after the unintentional spiral is initiated by simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, leveling the wing and increasing throttle as appropriate to return to a straight-and-level flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate for the weight shift control aircraft.



    6. Returns to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner.


    All Larry is proposing is changing the name to steep turn rather than spiral. Generally the concept and recovery is the same.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Ok paul ill go with that. But i thought you were advocating a stalled spiral , both wings stalled nose down.
    Thomas iam not questioning your post or being confrontational in any way. Back in 1979 when i was done with my buffaloe skyriders hang gliding course i knew very well that trying to milk lift off some little hill in the heat of the day was increased risk of stall and death. I also got that training going for my sailplane licence and g a licence. Yes that book written 50 years ago is absolutly correct! But i might add that it is stalls without sufficiant altitude . The old airspeed airspeed airspeed and altitude is your friend thing has always been my guardian angel. And not once have i encountered terra ferma hard. So what i dont understand is with all the current training we currently have that drill in airspeed altitude why so many stalled crashes? Either there is ineficiant training or neglegence to the training period.I have studied hang gliding accidents exstensively for many years and i have found almost all to be predictable! Looking at alot of trike crashes i see the same thing over the years. Then singleing out most of the spiral dive crashes many have been very low altituides. Low aproaches on hot days. Givin an example rob lyons he knew how to spiral dive and recover. But without the training bars he didnt have much of a chance to overpower a frightened newbie. So i think that just focusing on spiral dive recovery is not enough . If we want to lower the crashes we must reiterate hard to new and itermediate pilots the whole picture . If you are low altitude all the spiral training in the world wont put humpty dumpty back together again. Look in henrys and kens case a well trained pilot in the backseat barely i mean barely had time to pull out( iam not sure i could of done as good). So yes lets get some spiral training but please maybe we should hammer equaly as hard how to avoid stalling at low altitudes?
  • Abid Farooqui
    by Abid Farooqui 7 months ago
    WE wrote:
    "Do we really believe that by the time a student has been cut loose to solo he or she has developed the skills discipline and controled fear to practice s/dives when there instructor is not around. Because everything ive been told is that a newbie is just beggining to learn when hes cut loose. You have pilots that are afraid to fly in the smallest bumps that hold spl. Iam not totally against having it included"

    I wanted to address these points because they are correct but I wanted to give context and also some criticism.

    I understand what is being said here and my point is that I personally believe that a lot of students are being let go and become Sport Pilots way too early. They are absolutely not ready. They are barely at solo stage. There is no rule that says that someone has to become a pilot in 20 hours or 28 hours should be it.
    NO!!!!!!!!
    You become a pilot when I think you are safe. PERIOD!!!
    Before that I do not want to recommend you to an examiner.
    I am sorry if some people take 40 hours to get there and some 20. Each individual is different. I have seen enough trike pilots with Sport Pilot's license who should have barely been solo'ed that I think that is a major issue.

    There are many career student pilots. They want to keep soloing and never get their license because they are afraid of taking the written exam or afraid of the oral test. The instructors should not encourage that behavior either.

    You want to increase trike safety record where now trikes fatalities are 5 times as likely per hour of activity than airplanes, you got to take training seriously, signing off people for their license more seriously and career student pilots need to stop being that for 4 years at a time. How can someone get a pilot's license who cannot come and land his trike in summer on a normal day at 10:30 am just because there is a little convection turbulence going on or there is a 5 mph crosswind. Till you can do that to my satisfaction, I would not even recommend you for a trike exam even at the sport pilot level. No matter what amount of time you have.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    WE,
    I just reviewed your post about the more recent spirals in Australia and how the Australian authorities are becoming more concerned. They have this in their training curriculum now, any more info on this would be greatly appreciated.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    OK I am listening to everyone. In general here are some of the generalities have picked up from this blog:

    1. Most think there is a safety problem that needs to be solved with 23 deaths and a number of additional in Australia WE pointed out. So let's add 5 and make that 28 deaths from spirals. WOW that is enough for me.

    2. Some think it cannot happen to them (I disagree)

    3. Many think there is plenty of training and information out there provide enough "avoidance" to keep this from happening (I agree but it did not happen for those who have lost their life and those who may meet this fate in the future)

    4. Some think it is an extreme maneuver (I disagree. It is a basic steep turn with recovery.)

    5. Some do not want additional FAA regulations (I agree, but with all the current stuff out there the problem appears to be persistent and needs additional attention. The problem is that many CFI only train students/pilots the minimum to get through the checkride)
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    I went through and did the best I could to tabulate the results for
    1. adding it to the PTS and
    2 those against adding it to the PTS.
    RESULTS 13 for and 6 against.

    If I misunderstood your vote please excuse my interpretation and correct it. Did the best I could. Many were undecided because i could not accurately determine "for" or "against". Those who want to vote please do so I can have a better industry average . Your vote counts. Thanks to all, for and against. I will keep a separate list so this can be updated as it evolves.


    Listed are the names in order of the responses. Please check your vote.
    1 Paul - for - safety problem
    0 Clyde - against
    0 Bruce - against but wants to see hard numbers (28 if that matters)
    1 Larry - for
    1 Abid - for
    0 Tony - against
    Bill- Undecided
    0 Rizwan - against
    Tony - for watching henrys video to learn (Should this be a for vote?)
    1 Bill for training
    Jake undecided
    Bill not enough data
    1 Charles for
    1 Peter for
    1 Drew for
    Jake add to CFI only
    Dave undecided
    John Unclear
    1 Paul Dewherst for
    Leo new pilot in spiral undecided
    Jeff spirals for fun undecided
    Michael undecided
    Bill undecided
    Bryan undecided
    0 Lindsey against
    White eagle undecided
    1 John for
    1 Heather for
    1 Charles for
    0 Reb against
    1 Philip for
    1 Thomas for
    1 Henry trike life did not comment here but I will give him a "for" since training saved his life
  • John Glynn
    by John Glynn 7 months ago
    Larry, I like your suggestion of making a new task such as a power off steep turn and recovery. Yes I believe it should be on the practical test. Because the muscle memory contol movements may be counter to what some 3 axis pilots have learned I believe it is a good idea to make darn sure a transitioning 3 axis pilot can make the correct recovery or leveling out motion in both directions. Easily can be covered on one lesson. I believe the simple recovery that trikes are capable of in such a short loss of altitude is one of the benefits of our amazing weight shift aircraft. I also am grateful for my hang gliding upbringing first as excessive loss of altitude meant carrying it back up the darn hill. Grateful for all the instructors input on this topic. Thank you, fly safe.
  • Henry Trikelife
    by Henry Trikelife 7 months ago
    I'm a living sample of the surveyor of the accidental stall/spiral dive. If I don't know Larry's video and didn't get the actual training in Paul's trike, I was dead in the incident. The problem is that STILL a lot of trike pilots don't know these dangerous state of flight in trike and how we are vulnerable. Many pilots STILL don't know how to get out of these death spirals. I would strongly agree with Paul that the training has to be in PTS. I became a CFI just few months ago and I'm not confident yet to train student to practicing recovery. I would think that each CFI has to learn that from more experience CFI or DPE.
  • reb wallace
    by reb wallace 7 months ago
    thanks Henry for your contribution to the safety of this sport
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Reb, this discussion has nothing to do with stalls. It is spiral/steep turn recovery. Stalls is a completely different topic not discussed here. No stall discussion. No stalls in a steep turn/spiral recovery. REPEAT TO ALL - steep turn/spiral recovery without a stall. Not sure where stalls came in here never part of discussion.

    Reb,
    The question is are you for or against adding steep turn/spiral recovery (or what ever you want to call it) to the PTS. Appears you teach it now. Right now I have your vote as no. Do you want to change it to yes, keep it as no or become undecided? Your vote here counts.
  • Leo Iezzi
    by Leo Iezzi 7 months ago
    whew....that was a long read. My vote is "for" if it matters. As I have said before, Leo Fitzgerald taught me, and I thought it important enough to learn it for my , and my passengers safety.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Lets set the record/discussion straight here. If there was been any misunderstanding about spiral/steep turn recovery, it is spiral recovery and does not include stalls. This is completely different topic/discussion.

    Again: NO stalls in steep turns/spiral recovery.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Thanks Leo. Pretty funny you started this discussion as a NEWBE undecided. Now you are a pilot with a license to learn. I will change your vote to "for" which moves the numbers to 14 for and 6 against. Every vote counts. I am going to be down here with good weather flying ahead so keep your votes coming in. Appreciate all the input, for and against.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Well paul iam really not undecided . Ive mentioned that i am for it if its not a complete spiral stall dive. So you can count that as a yes. Now you and reb kiss and make up. Reb is a awesome instructor from what i hear. I totally agree that 28 deaths is totally unacceptable. No deaths is prefered but probably not realistic. Paul i know 3 of cfis in austrailia tony, ken , and peter. I have flown with all three of them and training with peter.I can say that all three are excelent pilots and there training is top notch to say the least and not that different than ours.Some very different technics on crosswind landing though but works supprisely well. I dont think anything different is happening in austrailia than is happening here. People getting complacent at low altituide maybe. We must remember that just because we understand spiral dive recovery it still will not add up to a save if you are to little in altitude. Henry goes over on just how quick that ground came up. Watching the video i count maybe 2seconds and henry and ken wouldnt have been used as an example. Thats a very small margine even doing things right!


    Abid i absolutely know for certain you are spot on in your post to me. I couldnt agree with you more. Iam impressed
  • Gregg Ludwig
    by Gregg Ludwig 7 months ago
    short answer in response to Larry's question: "yes" (no objection) Gregg
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Thomas Neilsen wrote: "2) As the aircraft descents 1000/ft a minute, and the pitch seems "normal", it is counter intuitive to reduce pitch in order to arrest the descent." This is a quote from one of the most famous books ever written on flying.

    The thing is in order for Henry to have saved his life, (Henry WAS at low altitude) he had to KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE what to do. Even if you know what to do (reduce AOA) if you haven't done it, if takes "balls of steel" to pull in as you are a second from impact coming down like a brick. Henry did it because he knew the result of pulling in from training.

    Just recently someone posted incorrect recovery from a spiral based on what "appeared" to be the steps. But you must experience the result of reducing AOA in order to trust WITH YOUR LIFE what the result will be when you don't have time to think, you don't have time to experiment, you just have to do something incredibly counter intuitive NOW! And Henry did it. Let us all sit down and watch again Henry's last moment here on Earth had he done anything other than pull in.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Wesley Felty wrote: When I was first training in Trikes, most everyone and every source said "It is impossible to spin a Trike unless you are trying hard to do it". I'm glad that I just happened into this conversation. I believe that another cause to the spins isn't just high performance wings, but some manufacturers changing their design to make their wings faster as customers demand by removing some of the safety designs. One manufacturer instantly dropped the new, faster designs right after the CFI and student were killed in Washington state, just a few miles from his factory with one of his airplanes. But, doing an extreme maneuver at 400' leaves no room for recovery.

    Ted Bailey wrote: so the fast hi performance wings Northwing makes are unsafe, but the ones NW makes for the other trike builders in the US are safe?

    Larry Mednick Wrote: Wesley if you are referring to Rob Lyons and the GT5 13.5m it is still being sold and hardly high performance by many standards. Reb has one on his trike and NW now makes a smaller, faster wing called the Conquest 12.4m as well.

    The wing in Heny's Video was a Northwing 12.5m Sport and I would say it recovered exceptionally well and very quickly when Henry's hand touched the controls. This is a faster, smaller version of the wing Rob went down in.

    Wesley, removing safety features??? Who is telling you these vague rumors. Do you mean lowering the sprogs? No one is doing that to my knowledge and king posts and sprogs have absolutely no benefit in a spiral. They do have "safety benefits" but not in positive G flight.

    Sounds like any rumor started. The more it spreads, the further from the truth it gets. The story goes, NW decided they were going to discontinue selling SLSA trikes and switch to ELSA and kits only. No design change. So there's the real story which has little to do with anything relevant.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    OK white Eagle that makes 15 for and 6 against. Thanks for the clarification. Do not worry, I have a great relationship with Reb more than you can imagine. I highly respect any ones opinion that is the purpose of this blog to get perspectives from everyone.

    Current Update
    15 for
    6 against

    I went through and did the best I could to tabulate the results for
    1. adding it to the PTS and
    2 those against adding it to the PTS.
    RESULTS 13 for and 6 against.


    If I misunderstood your vote please excuse my interpretation and correct it. Did the best I could. Many were undecided because i could not accurately determine "for" or "against". Those who want to vote please do so we can have a better industry average . Your vote counts. Thanks to all, for and against. I will keep a separate list so this can be updated as it evolves.

    Listed are the names in order of the responses. Please check your vote.
    1 Paul - for - safety problem
    0 Clyde - against
    0 Bruce - against but wants to see hard numbers (28 if that matters)
    1 Larry - for
    1 Abid - for
    0 Tony - against
    Bill- Undecided
    0 Rizwan - against
    Tony - for watching henrys video to learn (Should this be a for vote?)
    1 Bill for training
    Jake undecided
    Bill not enough data
    1 Charles for
    1 Peter for
    1 Drew for
    Jake add to CFI only
    Dave undecided
    John Unclear
    1 Paul Dewherst for
    Leo new pilot in spiral undecided
    Jeff spirals for fun undecided
    Michael undecided
    Bill undecided
    Bryan undecided
    0 Lindsey against
    White eagle undecided
    1 John for
    1 Heather for
    1 Charles for
    0 Reb against
    1 Philip for
    1 Thomas for
    1 Henry trike life did not comment here but I will give him a "for" since training saved his life
    1 Leo for
    1 White Eagle For
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 7 months ago
    Not sure as a Brit not even living in USA I have a vote, but if I have I would vote FOR. A little aside if I may. Late 2013 early 2014 I was looking to buy my first machine and looked both in France where I live, and in the UK. There was for sale on AFORS.COM a REVO but due to the restrictive (UK)legislation its price was low apparently to save the owner having to ship it back to the USA. I discussed the REVO with fellow pilots (French) and my instructor (French) who told me "Do not touch the REVO with a barge pole ... they have HUGE problems sprialing into the ground and killing those aboard" At the time I thought this to be a very bizarre comment and it came from many sources, my thoughts were "Surley, the Americans have checks and controls to ensure that "inherantly" dangerous products are not sold" and this I do believe. I would suggest that the TRUE basis of these comments and warnings against the REVO is less to do with the machine and more to do with the piloting of it. The REVO is thereby receive bad press based on poor information, I for one, am sad because had I known better, I may now have been posing with a REVO around the clubs in France. I refer back to comments made earlier on in the link saying that "MOST" of the spiral incidents seem to be based in the USA. No I do not believe that British or French pilots are any better or worse that Americans .... but sure as hell ... something is amiss. I see and enjoy many of the videos but have noticed that many are at very low levels, a real buzz. BUT height=time=security. I am not saying its right or wrong simply we novices (for I am one) tend to watch and emulate those more proficiant.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Philip, trash talking brands from those that have brand loyalty is nothing new. My favorite is when "experts" want to asses a wing they have never flown not even seen in person. The truth is, I'm not sure anyone has had a spiral fatality in a REVO ever. Perhaps the ignorant would BLAME Henry's wing in the video for the problem. If your wing can break a stall in level flight, the odds are it can spin. The pilot in Henry's video brought his Airborne XT down for spiral training which was equipped with the same exact REVO Sport 12.5 wing making it a "Reborne" vs. the "Recreation" that he almost died in. Because the front strut was closer on the XT we could not achieve a stall and therefore could not recreate the situation he was in with Henry. So the ability of the wing to stall while banked is a "safety feature" in itself. We have moved towards this as it can save lives. I equate this to cars with traction control, if you floor them in the rain and don't know how to counters ter they won't spin out. Is it necessary? Apparently helpful for some. However if anything was proven from Henrys video is that our wings will stall turn and recover in an instant. In any case that wing has long been discontinued and replaced, but they are flying around the world on many different carriages REVO, Airborne, AirCreation and more.
  • PHILIP QUANTRILL
    by PHILIP QUANTRILL 7 months ago
    I agree entirely with your comments Larry. My previous posting was only meant to highlight the fact that the "spiral" issue has and is discussed here in France but sadly attributed wrongly to the craft/wing and not its piloting.
  • William Fyfe
    by William Fyfe 7 months ago
    Good morning,

    I am very VERY new to this whole "weight-shift" concept after being a private pilot for nearly 20 years and still wrapping my head around flying without a yoke and rudder. Our trike is at NorthWing as we speak getting certified and I have yet to solo. What causes me to pause with what I am reading here is not the idea of training, that is a good idea, but do we really require additional official regulations? Personally, I am going the Light-Sport/ weight-shift route to get out from under the ever pressing thumb of the FAA, so, do we really need to get "Big Brother" involved?

    Bill
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Philip,
    Yes all countries are welcome to vote on this basic concept. The US looks at other countries for guidance as well as they look at us. Appreciate your input.

    OK that makes it 16 for and 6 against.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Yes William that is what this whole concept is about. No one wants big brother but we are trying to find a way to save lives.

    Loss of control with spiral dives with pilots dying is a big problem we are trying to find a solution to.

    Have you had transition training for your trike and did you do spiral recovery training?

    It would be best to start at the beginning of the blog and read through it to get every one's opinion to understand the situation. This will be very helpful for you. Great for and against opinions.
  • Jim Garrett
    by Jim Garrett 7 months ago
    I am a low time sport pilot of 150hrs..... I have had the opportunity to receive the spiral dive recovery training with Wes Frey. I would definitely vote for this training.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    OK Jim we will make it 17 for and 6 against
  • reb wallace
    by reb wallace 7 months ago
    yes William I will teach you spiral recovery even tho it's not in the PTS yet should be at your location this weekend. and yes Paul I think it should be required for CFI's to teach the spiral recovery sorry about the confusion about exactly what you were trying to achieve.
  • jeff trike
    by jeff trike 7 months ago
    Paul, I vote yes on adding spiral turn recovery to the PTS. It will probably save a couple pilots per year.

    I am more concerned about low time pilots getting trapped and forced to attempt high (15 kt - 20kt) crosswind landings.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    So Reb are you for or against having it in the PTS? I have you as a no vote. Is that your intention?
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    OK Jeff that will make it 18 to 6 now.
  • William Fyfe
    by William Fyfe 7 months ago
    Well, I have all the confidence that Reb is going to train me in everything I need to know without the need for additional regulations. I am going the Light-Sport/weight shift route for the freedoms that we can still enjoy. So I vote yes to training, but no to additional regulation! So, if you are taking count, no would be my response to adding this to the PTS. Bill
    46 mins ago
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Ok bill thanx. We will make that 18 to 7. Perhaps the against PTS should have a sub category of wanting training...........
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    On the subject of big brother. My opinion is that IF we didn't need a test and we were proposing a test that is one thing. Adding a task to an existing test doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Especially since it's an easy task with out having to control + - altitude which can be tricky for new pilots.

    To me adding an easy task that simply demonstrates familiarity and control input direction to an existing test is like checking your iron level on a blood test you are already taking to check your cholesterol. If big brother was mandating taking a blood test, I may be at home with my rifle ready to resist with force.

    Just my 2 cents for those that WANT the training but don't want to be tested on it.
  • reb wallace
    by reb wallace 7 months ago
    I am for having it in the PTS otherwise a lot of people wont get the proper training
  • wexford air
    by wexford air 7 months ago
    If an outsiders opinion has any standing, I vote that it should be included. I would also include powered spirals if not already in there but thats a whole other debate!
  • Joe Hockman
    by Joe Hockman 7 months ago
    I am for training that imparts knowledge/skills of steep bank recovery as long as those spiral turns do not involve bank angles that exceed manufacturers wing limitations (typically 60deg) AND they do not involve inside wing stalls. Students receiving this training should be checked on their skills in the PTS. IMO the DPE should carefully consider the many variables associated with each student tested. As just one example, if a student has only executed/practiced such maneuvers with their instructor in a trike with large wing and "relatively" low wing loading under calm conditions and then test execution is occurring in an unfamiliar "high performance" trike with small wing and high wing loading, one could expect less then perfect execution that might involve greater altitude loss than necessary, bank angles exceeding limitations, and even speeds temporarily exceeding Vne. DPE may want to be aware of students past experience in this maneuver and machine used prior to testing this task.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    The total is now 22 for and 6 against (2 of the against want training or think training should be provided somehow)

    Thanks to the new voters and Reb for the clarification. Updates for new totals - OK we now Bill F against (but wants training) have Reb for, Wexford for and Joe for -Yes Joe no one was ever proposing to do this outside the manufactures specifications nor high banked stalls for the PTS. And Yes examiners use judgement just like any other task.
  • Lindsay Mannix
    by Lindsay Mannix 7 months ago
    Hey Paul ,
    You can mark me as FOR .
    Im just aware that what is killing people may not be the spiral dive depicted in the various videos .
    I do concur that immediate instinctive recovery training is a step in the right direction.
    I did not specifically vote as i don't fly is us skies.
    Somebody(manufacturer) should make a remote version of their trike (not too difficult) and demonstrate "developed"stall spin recovery.
    Im pretty sire that there will be some breakage and it may not be in the manufacturers commercial interest to do so ,
    however it will come at some point and perhaps the first one could rightly claim kudos for having the balls to do it.

    I say this because i know that at least one pilot died knowing what a spin was.
    The condition that i am guessing was in a high bank turn at high speed and stalling with high aoa ..the centrifugal forces were already high.
    I have been able to briefly touch this condition but i am scared to death of letting it develop for obvious reasons .
    I have spoken with another adventurous old school triker who put his streak in this condition and he lost 2000 ft and felt like it was a bit of luck that helped him and his passenger survive .
    He desribed a bumping motion that he believes helped recovery.
    I will encourage him to post here .

    The first thing I have noticed was apparently high speed ,high g and high positive bar pressure ..suddenly the bar is light (I am always trimmed slow when doing silly things)
    an the g force decreases .obviously a stall ..never happened one up.

    It would never just happen in normal flight ,more likely in a badly coordinated wing over or a whooped de doo beat up.
    None of this will happen in normal flight and pilot training is key whatever the real cause of the wind in deaths are .
    A video showing a fully locked high speed stall spin as described would be very informative for the future of trikes.
    It wont be long before some young ,chute equipped adventurer shows us much more ..so now the commercial interest might be the chute manufacturers?
    What ever the case trikes are simply the best flying machine for the price and I always feel privileged to fly and own such elegant simplicity that is truly compatible with occasional use .

    I really don't want this to seem off topic but this is the closest thing i have seen to it ..its all training whatever the actual issue so the more the better!
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Lindsay, I assume you are referring to an original Streak and not a StreakIII.
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Thanx Lindsay,
    With your updated vote it is 23 for, 5 against
    It is nice to have the long term wisdom from your hang glider background (from which I came) for such an important safety issue to help safe lives of current and future trike pilots.

    Again, thanks to all for your important input.....
  • Rizwan Bukhari
    by Rizwan Bukhari 7 months ago
    Awesome! It is a definite improvement by asking pilots and for their votes.
  • Lindsay Mannix
    by Lindsay Mannix 7 months ago
    Yes Larry it was the first streak .I would like to hear your reasoning for this .
    Most of my home brew trikes have about 4 inches more bar out that the factory ones .
    Not for everybody though. I used to argue with airborne about this but ..I lost .
  • Dave Hasbrouck
    by Dave Hasbrouck 7 months ago
    Paul, My vote for what its worth regarding spiral recovery training. Yes for required, no for PTS.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Lindsay, I have had only pleasant experiences with the original Streak myself, but that wing had quite a list of spiral related scares according to pilots I have spoken to over the years. I don't know the details. The Streak III I have lots of experience with and I find it to be one of the most well rounded wings ever made. A bit dated now by today's standards, but a classic in my opinion. To the point that I was astounded to hear Airborne discontinued it.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    I must say that my finger has developed a calous from scrolling down to the bottom of the page! But i must say that i would like to hear a little more from (clyde poser) (b alvarius) (tony costillo)(bruce)(doug boyel) (ole )and others opinions who in some way object to what is proposed. These are some very exsperienced pilots i respect and i really want to here the whys of there opinions?

    Ps I also heard it mentioned in this blog by lindsey that other things may be involved in spiral dives. Please exspand your ideas here!
    And also i heard jeff triker mention being more concerned about new pilots getting caught in a quartering 15 knt crosswind. That frightens me a bit. Please exspand
  • Tony Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 7 months ago
    Because the proper recovery from some unusual maneuvers may actually be counter-intuitive (well explained by Larry M. in earlier post in this thread), it is a good idea to go over such during training, but with strong focus on prevention, and learning to recognized the factors and flight inputs that may lead to such unusual and undesired flight situations.

    All demonstrations used for instructional purposes should be kept well within aircraft flight limitations.

    A controlled descent turn (which is already practiced during flight instruction) do not need a "recovery" ... it is controlled and the return to level flight inputs may not be the same as recovery from a stalled turn situation, also it would not feel the same. But it may be the only safe flight maneuver that can be used to demonstrate lowering AOA to quickly recover from a stalled turn. However lowering AOA is not absolutely necessary in a controlled descent turn where AOA is within safe range.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Correct Tony, but lowering AOA should improve "exit" of descending turn anyway. That way we aren't teaching 2 different recoveries and the pilot doesn't need to asses the flight dynamics during the descent to choose which technique to use.
  • Tony Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 7 months ago
    Yes L. I agree that it can be practiced because it is indeed not the natural reaction ... like you very well explained. So definitively it is important to convey the message that proper quick recovery involves lowering AOA ... pushing the bar, which seems to be the more common reaction, makes matters worse. Doing controlled (not stalled) descent turns can be a good way to practice the pull-in-level-recover ... but we should be already be doing that in the normal training...
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    So the real focus is not how to recover from a spiral dive , but how do we keep pilots from dying from them , and how should training be included . It doesnt apear to me to be a newbie problem from the statistics. It appears to me to be an itermediate problem including the fatalitys in austrailia.The focus has been on before the spe. Based on henrys video flying roughly 300 ft to 400ft agl its very clear that by the time you are aware you have seconds to react. So how do we know that in these fatalitys that the pilots didnt already know sp dive recovery. Certainly in austrailia they did but most were at or below 300ft agl. So very clearly insufficent altitude and time to recover plays a hugh part. And then theres spiral fatalitys over water. Theres alot of sink air holes around water.how many pilots understand how sink holes over water can effect a turning wing? Certainly common sense tells you avoidance is your best option at low agl!
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    One more thought would be for the instructor to say STALL STALL STALL when the student should exit the power off steep bank turn. Much the same way you would pull in when practicing wings level stalls on a trike that just won't stall. This way everyone would be on the same page for why we are reducing AOA to exit the maneuver vs. exiting with another method (moving bar sideways only).
  • B Alvarius
    by B Alvarius 7 months ago
    Tony notes "Because the proper recovery from some unusual [emphasis mine]maneuvers may actually be counter-intuitive". The key word in this statement is "unusual".

    White Eagle then states "So the real focus is not how to recover from a spiral dive , but how do we keep pilots from dying from them , and how should training be included."

    With a proposal to include spiral dive recovery in the PTS for weight shift pilots we run the risk of requiring a student to demonstrate (during testing) an unusual flight maneuver which may require the control inputs from the DPE to recover.
    White Eagle goes on to conclude, "[i]t doesnt apear to me to be a newbie problem from the statistics. It appears to me to be an itermediate problem including the fatalitys in austrailia." As an intermediate problem I suggest there are other ways to address the issue, perhaps in a biennial flight review once the pilot has gained more experience with trikes.
    I agree that prevention is the best course of action and may be accomplished through a discussion rather than spiral dive recovery training and student pilot demonstration during testing. For example "don't push out on the bar in a turn", "don't give up energy", "keep the AOA low", "good positive energy management", "don't push the flight envelop". If while acting as PIC the phrases "look at this" or "I wonder what happens if I.." pop into ones head, then stop, land and take a break.
  • Henry Trikelife
    by Henry Trikelife 7 months ago
    There are cases that you go into a spiral dive accidentally, without a pilot input. So preventive learning doesn't cover everything. I think it is still important to experience how to recover in a trike. Implementation plan has to be given careful consideration though. We don't want any accident in training/examining precess.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Henry yes there are cases where S/d s happen ivertantly. But a new student shouldnt even be flying in high wind and rotor conditions. Like a mentioned before i think you could have a qualified instructor go through spiral dive recovery proceedures around the point before your solo in the method that larry mednick has presented. That would give them a little fear of getting into one and also give them the knowlege of lowering the AOA and snaping out of it with a careful attention of bleeding off the speed. Then be forwarned to hone there piloting skills ,throttle management and focus on keeping good energy upon takeoffs and landings. And like b alvarus suggested that S/D recovery could be demonstrated at a later time. I just think that having students practicing the spiral dive for pts may in fact bring us more fatalitys. How do we know?As long as there are risks we will by statistics have fatalitys. But a great deal of these fatalitys are preventable by staying in the manufactueres flight parameters, flying with some common sense.being careful of meteorlogical conditions and having a good plan b and lz within reach. Flying with excess altituide when you dont. The more that comply to those standards we will see fatalitys drop.
    Last week a russian truck drive cut me off going over lake core de lane bridge . I did 6 complete 180s on two tires and then a complete 360 spin facing backwards on the interstate with cars wizing around me at 80 miles an hour with only mildly scraping the rails on a 2 thousand foot bridge? Sonyas mothers day present was that she was (very lucky to be alive.) I have to wonder if i had flipped off the bridge would i have pulled the steering wheel in and turned it to the high side of the car. They point is if you are in a full downward spiral dive can you controll your fear enough to do the right thing to save yourself with just having the knowlege of how to do it. I think you can! I was at my limit trying to control that car (totally exhausting) i did everything in my power to save sonya and me. Trikes are safer with some altituide!
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Cars are friggin dangerous?
  • Paul Dewhurst
    by Paul Dewhurst 7 months ago
    We teach it and examine on it in the UK. It's always been in our training syllabus and skills test. I don't agree that it will result in accidents because of the practice. That hasn't been our experience. We simply have it as an exercise that is only to ge practiced with an instructor on board during training.

    There seems to be a conflating of spiral dive and stalling in a turn in this thread. I would keep the two as very seperate items that deserve their own individual focus on avoidance, recognition and recovery.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Paul dewhurst. I hear what you say and i agree with you. I just dont want to see a student do a few simulated turns with spiral dive recovery technics get Cut Loose to practice them for the exam. I also agree that a spiral dive and a stalled turn is not the same. I think the reason that they were all lumped together was because of Henry's video and we were trying to decide whether they should teach full spiral dive recovery or a simulated spiral dive recovery from a steep unstalled turn. What do you think they should teach ? As larry mednick has stated you can teach spiral dive recovery technics from a simulated steep unstalled turn . I think that would be a better option. I dont pretend to be the authority on this subject but it is one that highly interests me as i have lost many friends scince 1979. As abid has mentioned in this blog there are students that get let go way to early ! Iam all for what works and dedicated to anything that demonstrates a improved safety record.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    One question paul d. If you only have students doing spiral recovery in training does that mean that they practice it after being cut loose to solo before taking the exam in the uk. I guess what iam saying iam not a person that jumps headfirst into a pool. I want statistics to guide training. Do you have any statistics that show this. Iam interested. Not sure but i think they stopped requiring spins for ga because it was killing students. Anyone know?
  • Lindsay Mannix
    by Lindsay Mannix 7 months ago
    This Discussion is becoming rather interesting.
    Thanks to everybody !

    I will relate something that seems to be relevant

    I self taught flying with no instructors and little knowledge .
    Gradually (a year or so)I was able to soar my batten less glider for a few minutes at a a time .
    After mastering soaring in batten gliders . I sought power and eventually had the the first soar-master
    in Australia.
    This was great but i needed wheels because the best flying was when the wind was nil.
    I would launch the soar-master from hills in nil wind. but there were pitch problems .
    so the soar-master was cut down an what i thought was the first trike eventually, finally gave me a bit of
    control after a very long takeoff ..so now i could fly!!

    I then obtained my ppl and flew "real aircraft" for a while and obtained everything a commercial pilot
    would need and started doing charity flights etc but commercial aviation was costly even if the pilot
    was free so i went back toward trikes armed with a proper knowledge of air users and procedures.
    I quickly added better engines to the trike , the first was a Yamaha 350cc that I installed a prop-drive
    to, swinging a 12 by 36" prop..this had reasonable climb about 250 fpm but the prop was breaking the
    sound barrier at times so care with the throttle was used.

    One day at about 400 ft there was a deafening roar and some cables slashed my neck ...obviously the prop had
    disintegrated and landing was a requirement no problem this was a hanglider ...but it was my real
    training that allowed me do do what I could that was switch of and fly her down .

    It was all very disciplined and calm as i noticed that the rear wires were gone an the a frame felt
    funny but I did my switches off and went thru my check list down wind an base all calm as a cucumber ignoring what i could not change and looking for the various fuel taps and gear levers not being disappointed to find them absent .
    Busy applying what I had learned ...touch down bar out ...no... but touch down all the same.
    After unbuckling my belt from the plastic garden chair I stood and looked at the mess of wires and shattered sail , my legs gave way and the ground was the most comfortable i ever remember it.
    I wonder , if not for my training i might have panicked or tried to over fly it I don't know but I still
    honor the real training I received just for the attitude if nothing else ...so the more training the better no question.
    Dick heads ..or adventurers will try any thing whatever training they have and unusual things can and do happen (nothing like the now stupid combination I was flying)
    There remains the issue of can trikes really recover from a fully developed ( non recovered) high g stall turn or spiral ...I don't know does any body?
  • Paul Dewhurst
    by Paul Dewhurst 7 months ago
    White Eagle - the students are not allowed to practice unusual attitudes when flying solo. Of course we gave no cast iron guarantee they won't do what they like Solo if out of sight but they seem to respect that and play the game.

    As for statistics that's easy - we have never had an accident attributable to a spiral dive in the UK. And we have been quite an active triking nation.

    As for teaching spiral dives and stalls whilst turning the are both seperate items on our training syllabus and are both taught as practical air exercises and are both on the Skills test list.

    Paul
  • Paul Dewhurst
    by Paul Dewhurst 7 months ago
    Lindsey - here in UK we investigate for certification both high speed and high G spiral dives, and stalling at high G. I have been involved with a few test programs for certification and have performed these tests - including plotting stall speed against G to establish the aeroelastic coefficient ( how much stall speed increases due to wing distortion under G) and so far I am still here with all limbs and the recoveries were non issues.

    We also have a requirement for a positive relationship between bar force and G - which means that in a spiral the machine should require increased forward bar pressure to produce increased G - such that it's plainly perceptible to the pilot. That can be a tough requirement for some trikes - as washout increases with G which can then apply a kind of 'up elevator' force which sucks the machine unbidden into higher angle of attack and G when in a spiral.

    So our certified trikes should to a great extent trend to self recovery from a spiral dive simply by relaxing bar pressure. But I have flown others where this tendency is either very weak, or the reverse.

    Not sure how strict ASTM is on this - but would imagine it has something similar?

    Paul
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Again thanks to all for input. Paul Dewhurst your contribution from the UK is most helpful.

    The simple fact is that here in the US, the PTS is the training syllabus for more CFI's rather than less. This is the only vehicle to provide spiral training recovery to the masses to achieve the goals I hope we ALL are after (prevent others from spiraling in.

    As far as prevention and avoidance, this is already in place in the PTS, thus all training programs should include if followed and trained properly via risk management, weather, pilot/aircraft capabilities/limitations etc....
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Paul D. ASTM does not have a test like what you are describing. But as you know all wings will trim bar forward as you increase Gs or payload for that matter. The stiffness of the leading edge will ultimately control this effect. So I sense many people definition of recovery is "leg go of the controls" and this will allow the pilot to then have the opportunity to level the wing. BUT many times pilots think pushing the bar forward IS part of the recovery.

    I have done some pretty radical spirals and never seen 3 Gs. in Henry's video I assure you the pilot was physically holding the bar forward.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    Lindsay yes thank you ,exspecially for the stroll back to the good old days! Soarmaster wow we called them toe choppers! The story about prop hub seperation, you must have been flying one of the old wsc eagle ultralights from american aerolights that i worked for? I remember a time when i was drooling to get one! Now i look at them and cringe . Looks like a flying lawn chair.

    Paul dewhurst thanks so much for your imput. I remember shipping eagles, and gliders to gerry breen at breen microlights in the uk. Last year someone got me in touch with him in south america and when had a very nice little chat of the old days!

    Paul hamilton , larry mednick , abid, tony, doug b ,bill p , everyone thanks for your input and a very interesting discussion. Its really good to have the different opinions ,advise in the intrest of a better saftey record. Iam still a bit perplexed though as i groom thru the last eight years of crash fatalitys. Most crashes by students apear to be stalls on take off. Improper approaches , speed ,stalls on landing and a few that appear to be heart attacks with ageing new wsc pilots from ga who lost a medical! Most spiral dives apear to be 912s , with passengers, low agl, itermediate pilots and a few advanced pilots. It also is very difficult to decern other factors such as pilot responsability, as in gerry in hawaii or Birdstrikes that may have left no evidence.Plain and simple many crashes may be reported by witness as it spun or spiraled in.but in some cases that seems to be secondary.
    I also have to include the spiral death here in montana of which i have much more in depth knowlege of the facts.I have to conclude a catagory that in no way would any additional training prevent a pilot a pilot who is determined to add to the list of fatalitys!!!
    It is very true the statements above that any wing or trike can be unexspectantly be placed in a spiral dive. Big wings lightly loaded are no exception and are more vulnerable in harsher conditions.
    One thing that perplexes me is in the last eight years a very small percentage of crashes with fatalitys have been soaring trikes, far 103 !!! Because this is the group that requires the least amount of training? But in fact (and iam not advising anyone to do it) but you could go out and buy one off barnstormers and go fly it.

    So paul hamilton i will conclude my very opinionated, gabby, i know i talk to much post with this conclusion! I will leave the hope of preventing these fatalitys up to a strong concensus of very exsperienced ,talented pilots, and you know who you are including greg ludwig whom i hope recognizes that iam trying dam hard to be more proficient with my spelling? I truly wish that scott johnson would speak up here more as training with him i kinda look up to him as a trike god, hmmmm.
    None the less what ever is done with spiral dive training which at some point id like to get some advanced trike training. I would like to concur with this.
    That there is nothing more true than the cleshays of pilots who have stood the test of time. THERE ARE NO OLD BOLD PILOTS ( although paul h is getting close) ALTITUIDE(attitude)IS YOUR FRIEND BETTER TO WISH YOU WERE IN THE AIR THAN IN THE AIR WISHING YOU WERE ON THE GROUND!# FLY SAFE EVERONE
  • Tony Castillo
    by Tony Castillo 7 months ago
    Ken did not seem to be putting a whole lot of force to incorrectly continue push the control bar forward. Henry was able to easily pull in without a fight for control. Had Ken locked arms pushing out hard due to the wing resisting hard.. screaming to lower AOA, which does not seem the case (but instead of him casually pushing out with bent elbows and one hand in the training bars) , the result would have been a crash as Henry would have not been able to correct so quickly.

    Granted, that combination of trike & wing has not been thoroughly tested by either manufacturer ... so perhaps they were also doing a bit of test piloting. I am not sure that combo will pass Air Creation certification as is. We will not know for sure because it has not been tested to the EU certification standards or in schedule to be tested by the manufacturer of the aircraft.
  • Paul Dewhurst
    by Paul Dewhurst 7 months ago
    Larry - Rob G and I got up to a sustained 4g spiral testing the iXess ( very high bank angle, full power and an impressive descent rate!) we were younger and more foolish then - Gilles was quite shocked and rightly pointed out that static load testing has several assumptions about load distribution and reality might be a little different! We discovered that a few years later when Rob G bust a keel pocket on an early QuikR at 3.5G practicing for the Turin WAG.

    You can build in high stick force per G it seems to me by having a forward hang point position - the P+M wings have particular high values for this - by having a very forward hangpoint and the bungee up- trim system. It requires a really concerted effort to stalk them in a turn. Disadvantage is that you have to push really hard to coordinate a steep turn. Flying the QuikR in Dubai for the WAG we were doing 3-3.5G turns and had sore shoulders after a 3 minute run on the course!
    Paul
  • Paul Dewhurst
    by Paul Dewhurst 7 months ago
    White Eagle - I worked for US ex pat Barry Gordon in 1990 and he still had a few Eagles and introduced me to them - fantastic contraptions!
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Paul D. yes full throttle in a spiral is something I refuse to do and I can see how you can get more Gs that way. As you say its a GREAT WAY to blow up a wing. I just assumed you were talking power off. Ya that is CRAZY!!!

    I can trim my wing with a very far forward hang point and enter a spiral, but I MUCH PREFER to do it trimmed slow. I would also venture to say the pilot has a better chance of keeping a slowER airspeed in full slow trim in a spiral. But believe me if a pilot gets into a spiral and is trimmed fast and they think pushing out will make the nose go up away from the Earth, they will get the bar all the way out since the general human nature is if a little isn't working, they must need more to make it work.


    I blew the keel pocket out of a Manta 12 once. pretty scary. later models were beefed up as a result of it.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Paul Dewhurst Wrote:
    Larry - Rob G and I got up to a sustained 4g spiral testing the iXess ( very high bank angle, full power and an impressive descent rate!) we were younger and more foolish then...

    There are a few instructors in the US. That are currently opposing spiral training from what I've been told. There reasoning is they fly Air Creation and have been told that it cannot spiral. As you all know I released a video showing the AC doing a spiral descent which Gilles was quick to point out was not a dive but a stabilized spiral. Unfortunately I had no BRS and the owner was in the back seat so it was quite a "sissy" power off steep banked turn. Had I had some gutts and safety equipment I could have reproduced the spiral Paul Dewhurst is talking about. And had Paul D had a video you would see something that made Henry's video look "sissy".

    My point is that Paul D added throttle In the spiral. And MANY TRIKE PILOTS WILL USE THIS AS AN ATTEMPED, INCORRECT RECOVERY METHOD. So kudos that the wing held up to 4 Gs sustained, but there is no disputing that wing along with any other will basically all do the same thing when power is applied and if the bar is pushed forward That won't help either. To me whether or not the inside wings stalls at that point is completely irrelevant because the wing is getting ready to explode and if the wing does hold together the ground is coming!

    Over 50% of all pilots/students DO add throttle to exit a power off steep banked turn when placed in one for the first time. In real world once they add power and usually push out they will get results just like Paul D did. Even in big slow wing, even in a wing claimed to "self recover" will respond similar to Paul D's test.
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    In Henry's video you hear Ken talk about "increasing the throttle more" to exit the spiral or stalled turn or whatever you want to label it. Ken brought his trike to Florida to train with me on spiral recovery. Using the same wing on his XT it was unable to be stalled in any configuration including attempting to recreate the scenario in Henry's s video. BUT guess what? He used throttle to recover. So we corrected that and Ken UNLIKE others is good to go now and understands what to do. So it's no wonder people can't "digest" spiral recovery from talking about it and or watching a video. Heck, the guy in the video still didn't know exactly what to do. That's why I am FOR practical application of spiral recovery.
  • white eagle
    by white eagle 7 months ago
    So larry ive seen some big differences in training between cfis. How or what will be implemented and required testing to make sure that all cfis are on the same wave length.

    So the reason some may add throttle to exit a spiral dive is to increase roll authority but counter intuitive because you are tightening up the spiral arch and decreasing lift. Releasing throttle , pulling the bar in decreasing the arch and increasing roll authority. And managing your speed through the AOA after you flatten out with a sudden increase of lift. Is that a correct analogy?

    I must admit in all my hang gliding i dont think ive ever entered a unintentional stall or a severe tight spiral dive. I have to admit i was really concervitive. On one hand iam still alive but on the other hand i lack exsperience in more agressive manuvers. Ive used steep banks to lose altitude but i dont think ive ever been in a true spiral dive. Even then i knew how to get out of one but i was always a little scared to push the envalope. My friends had another term for it i wont mention here.
  • Robert Harington
    by Robert Harington 7 months ago
    I vote yes, with the caveat that you do not increase the angle of bank from forty-five to sixty degrees. Students will practice this on their own. No matter what you tell them and practice standards needs to have room for error.
    Back in the BFI days, I trained all students on the J turn or J maneuver for making smooth, easy roll changes. However, that was on a Wizard wing. Newer wings do not need to unload to roll smoothly, so I have mostly stopped teaching it, but it is exactly the recovery procedure for spiral dives except for adding in throttle reduction and application. In example, pull in to unload the wing (long part of the J) level the wing (bottom of the J) and finally recover from a dive and resume normal flight (short part of the J coming back up). I have seen students get into spiral dives from turns on a point and steep turns, usually in clear calm air. None of the students recognized that they were in trouble even after I took the controls and recovered the aircraft.
    Reducing the angle of attack needs to be a habit and therefore needs to be trained.
  • Paul Dewhurst
    by Paul Dewhurst 7 months ago
    all wings will self recover to a degree. But as Larry says that is not the issue. It's pilots using control inputs that hold in or increase the spiral out of ignorance or mistaken actions. That's why it's vital students get exposed to the scenario and can recover instinctively.

    We teach four basic unusual attitudes in our syllabus - Nose up, and with bank, and nose down and with bank ( spiral dive). The end game is to have a student that can be put by the instructor into an unusual attitude after a series of manoeuvring to promote disorientation whilst the student has their eyes closed. Then on the command 'recover' open their eyes and quickly assess attitude and energy state and apply the correct recovery.

    Both sets of attitudes require development of instinctive reactions which are counter intuitive - the use of throttle for instance is usually associated with controlling climb or descent. But the reaction to a steep nose up attitude must be to apply power - closing the throttle can precipitate a tumble. And adding power when steeply nose down and banked will just drive the spiral and increase speed and G.

    To not teach and examine on these crucial areas would be a massive omission IMHO.

    Paul
  • Paul Dewhurst
    by Paul Dewhurst 7 months ago
    PS in the dual training we progressively work up to close to the certified bank angle limit and Vne of the aircraft to establish that the recovery actions are not debilitated by the sensation / fear of these corners of the envelope. It's important that this is not glorified or presented as fun and the dangers of exceeding the envelope are well understood and respected. The aim of the exercise is to educate the student so they have a very healthy respect of the dangers and will not throw the machine about recklessly or beyond their skill level, but have the knowledge and skills to get out
    of an inadvertent unusual attitude caused by wake or other met turbulence encounter or from a mishandled manoeuvre.

    Paul
  • Larry Mednick
    by Larry Mednick 7 months ago
    Paul D. Very well said. I especially like the comment about how thottel is needed when in a nose up attitude. It is absolutely the exact opposite of nose down and equally counter intuitive. Ironically it is from lifting off the throttle from the nose up attitude that pilots enter an inadvertent spiral in many cases. Great example, Perhaps worthy of another thread. I was also almost killed when a pilot flew me into a huge thermal with a huge wing many years ago and then dropped the throttle in an effort to get the nose down. To say the least, he got the nose down.... I was fumbling to find the hand throttle as we almost tucked... Note to self, never fly back seat without a throttle and a kill switch...
  • Paul Hamilton
    by Paul Hamilton 7 months ago
    Yes I have created a bog in this important subject to keep this on track with spiral recovery. Thanks Paul D for bringing up the pitch attitude scenario. Please address the pitch attitude in the new blog I just started.

    Thanks for all efforts.

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